thefourthvine | Woobies Wanted

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Woobies Wanted

brown_betty and I have been discussing woobies. Further research - for the good of science! - is now required, and so I come to you for help. I need a list of woobies.

TVTropes has a great page on woobies [Warning:

cherry_ice and I have determined that TVTropes is a black hole. If you click on this link, there is a chance you will never escape from the website. Leave a message for your loved ones before you click. Also it's a good idea to pack a lunch.], which features this definition:

"[The woobie] is that character you want to give a big hug, wrap in a blanket and feed soup to when he or she suffers so very beautifully."

And there is, of course, a huge long list of woobies attached, but a lot of those people are woobies in canon more than in fan fiction, and I want the fannish ones. I'm looking for the person in a given fandom who is always being hurt (and then comforted), the person who you just know is going to have a secret shame or a secret trauma or a secret disease, probably while he is being raped and beaten in prison by Nazis with spiky boots. In other words, I want to know who, in your fandom, is the character who you'd immediately think of if you read this header:

Title: Recovery and Revelations Part 7, 1/???
Series: Hold Me Tight Tonight (Confronting the Darkness)
Author: I <3 Woobies!
Summary: To protect the ones he or she loves, Character X sold his or her body to evil slaver alien wizards. Now Character X is finally back home. Can the [team/family/friends/loved ones/etc.] help him or her recover?
Warnings: Noncon, dubcon, torture, past child abuse and incest, betrayal, cutting, slavery, underage sex, involuntary drug use, porn, some swears.

In the future, there will be a poll. But first, I need the names to go in the poll. So tell me: in your fandom, who is the woobie? To make this extra-challenging, especially for you people in Harry Potter and Supernatural: you can only nominate one person per fandom. I want to hear about the Woobiest in All the Land.

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Are woobies necessarily male? Cuz I don't think I've seen a single woman mentioned? Which is very, very interesting. Possibly woobieness exists in the contrapuntal relationship of, otoh, an unambiguous masculinity and, otoh, pain and suffering which that kind of masculinity prevents a person from expressing openly. Women are stereotyped as weak (lol), and therefore their fictional representations can't bear the weight of woobiness.

But I'm open to exceptions. I just thought of one: Starbuck from BSG. But so many people on that show on contenders, I mean, the basic premise creates such fruitful ground for angstmuffins and woobies. Still, Starbuck is one of the central woobies. (btw, never got past the beginning of S03, have been spoiled for [some?] character death in S04, not really interested in further spoilers.)

I was actually wondering this same thing (though I've only read the list on DW and not LJ). I keep trying to think of woobies in femslash fandom and it's hard. I'm wondering if that's because the tropes are just different or if there's something else at work here.

I'm hypothesizing that it's a combination of the source material and our own internalized ideas about masculinity and femininity and maleness and femaleness and the resulting fannish tendency* to eroticize male vulnerability**; and when we write female characters, many of us want to make sure they're not victims. I think "woobie" means victim but with a bunch of connotations specific to masculinity. Starbuck, the one exception to the male-only rule I can think of, is definitely butch and boyish or however you want to describe her. Roslin (for instance) doesn't read as a potential woobie, and she's on the feminine side - combining femininity and strength, but that's not the same thing as masculinity***. And you just don't get a lot of masculine women in mainstream media. There's some, but not a lot - that cuts down on the potential female woobies by a lot.

*As a noticeable trend, not a blanket description - there's obviously a lot of diversity in fandom.

**No judgment there.

***A common kind of masculinity, typically found in woobies, pretends to a strength which isn't there. Or, strength is a quality used to cover up vulnerabilities. And fandom *loves* playing with that aspect of this kind of masculinity.

Yeah, I managed to come up with a list of woobie-ish women further down the thread, and they almost all tend to be on the less-traditionally-feminine side, i.e. Xena, Susan Ivanova, etc.

I think it possibly has something to do with the fact that they're presented as strong in an almost over the top way, so that when we write them as damaged, they don't come across as helpless victims, which I think might be part of the difference. Men in these situations still have agency, they're almost complicit in their own pain, where as when we think of, or write women as victims, they lack that same agency. They don't choose to endure this pain for the good of someone else, as the men seem to, the pain is simply inflicted upon them.

With a character like Xena, she has so much agency that it's almost impossible to write her as a passive victim, if she's in pain, it's because she wants to be, hence... woobie-ness.

And I think that if I keep going, I'm going to have to write a post of my own.

Edited 2010-02-28 17:09 (UTC)

Never watched Xena, and I'm a classics major so (based on plot summaries I've read) I never will because I really don't think I'll be keen on how they adapted Greek mythology. Who's Susan Ivanova?

they don't come across as helpless victims

I feel like it's more that there's an either/or thing - either female characters are strong, or they're not. There's more flexibility with male characters because in that case we're working *against* stereotypes about masculine strength rather than resisting stereotypes about feminine weakness. To put it another way, there's more to lose (from a feminist standpoint) by trying to make a female into a woobie and it's harder to write her as a woobie than as just another female victim.

And I think that if I keep going, I'm going to have to write a post of my own.

Do it! Mm, lovely meta : )

Ivanova is the second in command on Babylon 5 and she's very... Russian. Guilt riddled, mildly alcoholic, with a dead brother and a tortured/suicidal mother and her almost lover (yay! canonical lesbian couples) gets killed early on in the series and I can't remember what happens to Marcus, and she totally represses all of it... so it seems like she would have lots of woobie potential.

And Xena... I think you either need to be gleeful about finding all of the things they get wrong with Greek/Norse/Indian/Chinese mythology, or you have to divorce yourself entirely from anything you know about those things and just buy into their version entirely. But if you can do that, it is wonderfully campy and cracktastic and OMG full of angst.

And I think I might go write that meta now...

What do you think happens to Marcus!

He dies. To save Ivanova's life. I do believe there is melodrama about the fact she didn't respond to his romantic overtures, never mind the fact that he was a creepy nerd-virgin of the worst slannish order.

So... yes. There's some woob-potential there.

Well, I suspected, but I wasn't sure, so I didn't want to say anything. I kinda got stalled in the beginning and I haven't gotten back to it yet.

Yeah, Ivanova, total woobie

I agree with this entirely - much as manpain depends on certain socially constructed aspects of masculinity, so does woobieness (though they are slightly different aspects). A female character suffering the exact same torments, and responding in almost the same way, is still going to have a different *meaning* for a lot of people, just because she's female.

A female character suffering the exact same torments, and responding in almost the same way, is still going to have a different *meaning* for a lot of people, just because she's female.

YES. And I think when fandom does get a strong female character of whatever kind, a large number of us are reluctant to do anything to diminish her strength but particularly so if bad shit is already happening to her. Maybe, show that a female soldier-stoic type like Zoe from Firefly or Riza Hawkeye from Fullmetal Alchemist* is capable of emotional softness toward one or two people she's very close to; but less likely that you'll see them tortured, etc. Heh, in Firefly, it's *canonical* that (imo) the best candidate for woobie-hood, Mal, gets tortured and Zoe who saves him.

*ppl here seem most familiar with US/British TV, but Riza and Zoe are very similar - stoic soldiers, indispensable seconds to their (male) commander.

Yes!

But it's not even entirely, I think, about what people are willing to write - like, Scully in X-Files has almost as much canon trauma as Mulder does, and people writing XF het did in fact torture her almost as much as they tortured Mulder. But she is so not a woobie - she's either an awesome character who's had to put up with a lot of crap and lived through it, or alternately, a badly-written character who's embodying a bunch of problematic stereotypes, but never both.

Some of that's about media & fandom's problems with writing female characters, but some of it is just inherent in the way we think about gender, I think.

(I think for me the thing that clinches it is that I would really, really hesitate to describe a female character on an open channel as "so pretty when she cries". Which makes me wonder if I should be describing male characters that way so blithely, and yet.)

Are woobies necessarily male? Cuz I don't think I've seen a single woman mentioned?

I was noticing this, too. Obvs I can't speak to others' motivations in woobie-fying one character rather than another, but for myself as a reader and occasional writer of fic involving woobies, the idea of placing a woman in that role makes me intensely uncomfortable and even anxious. Placing male characters in positions of extreme vulnerability (i.e. abusive situations/relationships) and then letting them find happiness later on despite their ordeal feels cathartic to me. The pleasure is in the melodrama. Placing female characters in those positions, otoh, feels...like real life.

(Of course, men do experience abuse in real life, and I'd never mean to suggest otherwise. But it's still statistically unlikely that your typical male character--who in addition to simply being male tends also to be some combination of white [or the dominant ethnicity of his country, in the case of non-Western fandoms], cisgendered, middleclass, college-educated, well-muscled, competent with guns/weapons, trained in combat, and politically influential--would be at risk.)

Thanks for a fascinating comment thread! I agree that "woobie" has to do with the transgression of masculine gender roles ... and also that many of us are less comfortable with seeing female characters as passively suffering, because we don't want to fall into sexist stereotypes about women. So, er, the labeling of woobie-ness has to do with rejection of traditional gender stereotypes either way? But then why do so many of us (myself included) enjoy and eroticize that kind of passive suffering in men? *just dithering here, but enjoying the food for thought.*

I agree that "woobie" has to do with the transgression of masculine gender roles

That sentence encapsulates what I like about this sort of aca-leaning fannishness.

But then why do so many of us (myself included) enjoy and eroticize that kind of passive suffering in men?

For the same reason, or related reasons, that lots of people like BDSM porn, I guess. Though woobieness isn't just passive suffering, it's got that hurt/comfort aspect to it - to contrast it with, say, non-con & snuff-fic. Overall, I think there are related reasons between the different ways the fen make male characters suffer as they slash them, but I'm not sure if it's more accurate to think of those ways as being on a spectrum or in different categories.

That sentence encapsulates what I like about this sort of aca-leaning fannishness.
Gee, is it that obvious? *grin* Yup, English literature PhD here. Just add the word "transgression" and go!

Seriously, reading this discussion has been awesome, and I'm so glad I ran across you here. Your question about woobie-gendering has also provoked a long and exciting debate among other aca-leaning fans, on an LJ which linked to your post: http://sophinisba.livejournal.com/280803.html

In the responses to sophinisba's link, several people suggest that the male-woobie trend (especially the white-male-woobie trend) validates the suffering of those who are already socially privileged. No further comments from me now, because I need to run off and do my actual academic work, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this--here or on sophinisba's LJ.

Yay fannish analysis!

I think that part of it has to do with the central conceit of the woobie: someone that we kinda want to H so we can see C happen! Female characters are often polarizing (see how I'm keeping my analysis shallow to avoid wank), and that the majority of them we either don't want to see hurt, or don't want to see comforted afterwords.

Seeing Simon badly injured, still calling Mal Sir & Captain even as he's trying to talk him through fixing his hurts, and then breaking down in his arms when it's all over... there are many powerful desires at work.

He's so starched, we want to muss him up a bit!
He's so above it all, let's cut him down to size!
He's so reserved, let's open him up!

But despite all of that, we LOVE him and we WANT him to be HAPPY! Like the Ghost of Xmas Present, sometimes you have to SLAP THEM IN THE FACE just to get their attention! Once the downhill slope of woobiefication has reached its nadir, we can build them back up and patch all of the ouchies that have been exposed by the trauma. And hey, no new ouchies generated, because the woobiefying action? Totally not their fault.

So, for a Woobie to Woob, you must like the character, but you must also have something you DON'T like about the character that you can destroy with the trauma-ness of it all. Zoe, I love. I feel absolutely no need to see her Woobiefied, because she damn well Would REFUSE to WOOBIE, gorramit! She is whole and entire, and fully capable of working out her own shit. Mal, while stoic and sarcastic, is still a freaking WoobieMonster and requires regular beatings to better himself. Jayne (or Xander, for a more popular example) I have very few positive feelings for. They could certainly USE the help and the cuddles, I just feel no urge to provide them, or even see them provided. Seeing a cold shivering Xander being handed a warm blanket on a dark doorstoop, I would snatch the blanket away and toss it into a mud puddle :> Is there a word for this Anti-Woobie?

Xena & Gabrielle both make wonderful Woobies, especially because if you Woobie one, the other morphs into a Woobie from the sheer empathetic horror of it. Kaylee, not so much, because I don't want to see anything bad happen to her, not even to the point that she would need a comforting cup of cocoa :(

I haven't read much Woobiefic in other fandoms, but the little I have seems to follow a certain pattern: Pair exists with unequal power/worth dynamic. (Top/bottom, for linguistic clarity within this example). bottom experiences something horrible, either because of outside circumstances OR because of inadverdent actions of the Top. Top feels very bad, cuddles bottom, explains how it wasn't the bottom's fault, the bottom is wunnerful and awesome and oh so worthy. Bottom grows back the missing vertebrae on spine and happy times are had by all.

Now go back to that scenario and assign a gender to the top and bottom. Switch it up. See how that changes? Some ideas are more comfortable than other, and prolly more common because of that.

One other thing may be the relative lack of these complex, yet sympathetic female characterizations in some of these fandoms, which is a whole nasty sinkhole of gender!fail that I plan on ignoring for Lent.

This could be a panel discussion, y'all. Who's taking this to a con?

Briefly, before I get these points but so I also get down to work sooner rather than later (um, my thesis is due today):

It's just OOC to woobify Zoe. But OOC doesn't stop fans. As someone commented elsewhere on this post, in fanfic Simon* gets portrayed as the Angiest of Them All, gets raped and tortured, just needs Mal's strong arms around him and probably needs to be topped, too.

As I say elsewhere, before woobifying a character must be an angstmuffin (tho not all angstmuffins get woobified) - and Zoe isn't an angstmuffin. She doesn't have the guilt, the sense of responsibility for things that aren't her fault, she doesn't get twisted up in her own emotions and past like an angstmuffin. Mal? The closest thing to an angstmuffin that Firefly canon has (fanon is a different story). If Simon gets woobified a lot in fanfic, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that he's pretty and therefore slots into certain of fandom's stereotypes for male characters even tho that renders him more or less OOC sometimes.

*I like Simon as a top, and I think Mal is a twit, but that's just me, and maybe I'm overidentifying with Simon as the smart geeky socially awkward one and geeky I mean I've thought about going pro and getting a Ph.D so I get get paid for geeking out with footnotes and theorists. Which is why I'm discussing woobiness and angstmuffins the day my thesis - on something entirely different - is due. Yeah.

...seems to follow a certain pattern: Pair exists with unequal power/worth dynamic ... Now go back to that scenario and assign a gender to the top and bottom. Switch it up. See how that changes? Some ideas are more comfortable than other, and prolly more common because of that.

Yes!

This could be a panel discussion, y'all. Who's taking this to a con?

That'd be awesome. The Angstmuffin and the Woobie: Masculinity, Canonicity, and Eroticism in H/C Fanfic or soemthing like that. Make a damn good paper, too.

And of course it was an anon so I can't follow whoever it is who posted this interesting comment : (

Seeing a cold shivering Xander being handed a warm blanket on a dark doorstoop, I would snatch the blanket away and toss it into a mud puddle :>

*DIES*

I tend to think there's an aspect of heteronormative stuff running through some of this. Western women, at least, are taught to see male vulnerablity as special, and in need of our nurturing.

"My Nigel, who suffers so beautifully, is a male who can embrace his feminine side and therefore I should feel no guilt for being codependently attached to taking care of my senstive little boy and of seeing other women as unworthy of him. A woman's suffering is a dime a dozen and if she can't deal with it, then she's faking being a damsel in distress, and not the stoic endurer, and she's not worth our effort, because, after all, we're going through the same mundane things and she ought to just take care of herself instead of feeling entitled to being the center of attention."

It's one of the ways the kyriarchy gets women to care more about men than other women, and even ourselves--if not male peers, then male children. I don't think this is the only thing going on here--everything everyone else saying is part of the drive here, but it's one of the strands. It's one of the ways slash is not revolutionary (as opposed to the ways in which it is), but can give a reader normative, or cathartic, satisfaction.

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Woobies Wanted

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sorry for the incoherence

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