thefourthvine: Two people fucking, rearview: sex is the universal fandom. (UF black and white, Universal Fandom)Keep Hoping Machine Running ([personal profile] thefourthvine) wrote,
@ 2011-10-04 11:30 pm UTC
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Okay, so a few months ago I made a playlist for Best Beloved (based around the theme of heroes and saving the world, additions still gratefully accepted) featuring the song Michael (Jump in), which is actually written (Jumpin) in the version I bought, but I refuse to believe that. Anyway, what I didn't realize when I put the song on the mix is that it is, at least according to BB, a song written by a car to David Hasselhoff.

Best Beloved spent some time explaining this concept to me - apparently, the car was an artificial intelligence, and together he and Michael (played by David Hasselhoff) fought crime. And then I asked her about the line in the song that goes:

"It's not like you/To turn your back and let the dark side win"

Obviously, this gave me a mental image of the show as a kind of Star Wars crossover, where Michael was a Jedi and the car was his - trusty, um, whatever. Racer-thing, maybe. Basically, I was sort of envisioning David Hasselhoff as Anakin Skywalker, which made my brain hurt.

BB explained to me that, no, it wasn't about Michael's dark side. "Because I don't think he really had one," she said.

"But without angst, what do you write about in the third season?" I asked her.

She didn't know. Apparently her television knowledge is not that encyclopedic.

Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure I can imagine this concept. He's a lone wolf white guy out to save the world with just his car (and, I'm guessing, his fists or maybe a gun, although BB did not go into that part)! Surely he must have:
  1. Angst, including a tragic back story.
  2. A dead wife or girlfriend or kid something, or maybe just one who left him with prejudice after she found the photos of him with a puppy on his dick. (Warning for a dude with a puppy on his dick. NSFW, is what I'm saying. Also possibly not all that safe for your brain.)
  3. A constant struggle with the dark side, whether it be his alcoholism or his desire to eat people or his evil twin or his general dickishness or whatever.
You can't have TV without those things, is my understanding. Even in Sports Night, a half-hour comedy show, Danny had a dead brother, a bad relationship with his parents, and some kind of major emotional breakdown including acting out on air. He had plenty of angst! He had a dark side! He was a news anchor on a half-hour comedy show. So I really don't see how a crimefighter with an intelligent car could get out of this. (BB does recall that the car apparently had some angst. And an evil twin.)

Except, as previously documented extensively in this space, my understanding of TV is limited and narrow. So - can you have TV without those things? I mean, are these the actual requirements, or am I just confused? And if those are the requirements, was it always that way? Can you pinpoint an era as the Rise of Main Character Angst? What about Main Character Dark Sides?

Tell me about angst and dark sides on TV, is what I'm saying!


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apatheia_jane: (bright side)


[personal profile] apatheia_jane
2011-10-05 07:09 am UTC (link)
I'm trying to think of an example of a show that does not have Main Character Angst/Dark Side, & I'm struggling.

Lost girl has angst, but the audience is usually too caught up in the fluff to care. Rizzoli & Isles does not have much. Community is pretty low on it.

All I'm doing is coming up with examples of main character angst driving plot. Angel, Dr Who, Starbuck, Xena (omg Xena so much), ranma 1/2 (actually a female or panda, rather than a dark side, House.

I feel sure that it is possible. And yet, I can't really think of a good example of it being done.

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eleanorjane: The one, the only, Harley Quinn. (grin, harley)


[personal profile] eleanorjane
2011-10-05 12:09 pm UTC (link)
Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is Castle.

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heresluck: (castle)


[personal profile] heresluck
2011-10-05 12:29 pm UTC (link)
...Beckett's angst about her murdered mother doesn't count?

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eleanorjane: Kate Beckett, looking gorgeous. (beauty)


[personal profile] eleanorjane
2011-10-05 01:36 pm UTC (link)
Not if we're talking about Main Character Angst, but she's certainly got enough angst for the pair of 'em ;)

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lydiabell: (purple flower)


[personal profile] lydiabell
2011-10-05 03:18 pm UTC (link)
Castle's inversion of the usual gendered storyline continues to intrigue me. Here you have a show where the main character is: a) a white dude; b) played by an actor who already had a following (which Stana Katic didn't, AFAIK); and c) THE TITULAR CHARACTER. Yet the main story arc of the show is fundamentally Beckett's story. (spoilers ho!)It's her tragic past, her quest, her dead mentor. Castle's providing vital support, but he's supporting Beckett's story. It just kind of knocks me out.

My biggest worry for this season is that they will undermine their own undermining of the trope by having Castle take over the quest and moving Beckett to the side to protect her, but I don't think that's actually going to last very long.

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thefourthvine: The 4th Vine in blue letters.  (TFV blue)


[personal profile] thefourthvine
2011-10-05 09:56 pm UTC (link)
Some people have come up with decent-ish examples - Psych, for one. (Community I'd let stand, except that it was actually one of the ones I had in mind when I wrote the post. It is a light-hearted ensemble half-hour show! And yet Jeff has career angst and a dark side in the form of his own dickishness.)

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rheanna: pebbles (stones)


[personal profile] rheanna
2011-10-05 07:35 am UTC (link)
TOS James Kirk was a character who had virtually no dark side, which probably reflects the era in which he was created. TOS Kirk was basically a guy who was really, really good at being a starship captain and really, really liked his job, and didn't need much in life except to fly around the galaxy, bed the female guest star of the week, and spend a LOT of time with his Vulcan first officer. Any angst he did experience was generally resolved by the end of the episode. The later movies tried to give him Leading Man Angst in the form of David Marcus, but it never quite stuck. The only trauma you really *believed* Kirk experienced was over Spock's death and the destruction of the Enterprise, and both those things tied back into his original 1969 characterisation rather than the backstory that was added later in the movies. Reboot Kirk, otoh, has Major Angst about the death of his father, and a few anger management issues thrown in: in 2010, Kirk can't be just a guy who's really good at his job and is a success within the system (youngest starship captain ever), he has to be a rebel who succeeds almost in spite of himself.

The ST:TNG characters were pretty angst-free, weren't they? Picard accumulated increasing amounts of angst as the series and movies went on; although he went through his share of traumatic events, the only one which was referenced as having had a deep and abiding psychological impact on him was his time as Locutus of Borg -- famously, he had to face up to the immediate emotional aftermath in 'Family', and after that his feelings about the Borg affected his judgment on several occasions.

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pocketmouse: Cartoon and real TOS Vazquez Rocks: No matter where you go, there you are. (tya)


[personal profile] pocketmouse
2011-10-05 02:17 pm UTC (link)
This. Actually, a lot of the TNG characters had angst in their past, but usually it was used for an episode or two and that was it. Tasha and Worf both had some variation on Troubled Childhood, Dr. Crusher's husband had died, etc. But those things came up probably twice a season at a laaaarge stretch.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2011-10-05 03:50 pm UTC (link)
TOS Kirk did have Peter and his parents providing angst (I think all the parental!angst TOS Kirk had was bookverse, but wow did the Reboot writers pull from it) and of course various women he loved and then got killed - particularly Edith and Miramanee - but as mentioned below, TV at the time was so episodic that it didn't allow for much dwelling on the past, so most of the angst lasts one episode and then is never heard from again.

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brownbetty: (teapot)


[personal profile] brownbetty
2011-10-05 04:08 pm UTC (link)
This is a decent point. I mean, Tarsus is TOS canon, but the show totally dropped the angst-ball on that one. I mean, if you made the Tarsus storyline now, we'd have to have flashbacks to the first time he killed a man at age eleven, or something, but in TOS it's basically like, “Yeah, so I never mentioned I am one of like five survivors of a genocidal maniac, did I? Long story, moving on!”

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thingswithwings: nimoy and shatner hug and are adorable (trek - nimoy and shatner hug)


[personal profile] thingswithwings
2011-10-05 04:21 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I really feel like one of the POINTS of the reboot is to add in extra manpain and angst - Kirk's dad dies (and his mother is absent-ish, I guess?) and Spock's mom dies, and even Nimoy!Spock is given a giant bag of angst in the form of "have to watch my planet implode." It's absolutely a dramatization of the difference between 1960s media and 21st century media, in that I guess Kirk and Spock can't be compelling unless they're angsting? Anyway I find it eyerolly.

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anatsuno: a women reads, skeptically (drawing by Kate Beaton) (skeptical reader)


[personal profile] anatsuno
2011-10-05 11:33 pm UTC (link)
Word.

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laurajv: Don't give me any wild ideas! (wild ideas)


[personal profile] laurajv
2011-10-05 07:44 pm UTC (link)
TOS James Kirk was a character who had virtually no dark side

And yet, there was an entire episode based around his rapey, rapey dark side.

I just -- I don't know. Kirk's past and dark side come up not-super-infrequently in TOS; there's not a lot of episode continuity so it's easy to see each instance as self-contained. But when you start listing them out, it's actually quite present, perhaps even as present a theme as Spock's Vulcan-human issues.

Tarsus, death of Gary Mitchell, obsessive and creepy love of his ship, rapey evil side transporter accident, horrible mind-rape, death of his brother and sister-in-law, death of Edith Keeler...

He spends a lot of time all bounding-yet-somehow-nerdy-sexy-captaining about, but I'm not sure I buy that the character is dark-side-less so much as the show only occasionally got round to his dark side driving anything.

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thefourthvine: Thefourthvine with a brown background. (TFV brown)


[personal profile] thefourthvine
2011-10-05 09:59 pm UTC (link)
We talked about TOS - BB and me, I mean - when I posted this! And I think I agree. For me, the key is - okay, Kirk is presented as overcoming, or rather having already overcome, his dark side/angst/whatever. Yes, fine, whatever, Tarsus, all that, but it didn't stick. He's a hero! He's shiny and golden! He's had hard times and already dealt and moved on! Spock is the TOS dude with angst and a dark side.

Which, I mean, obviously they had to fix this when they rebooted, because you can't have a hero without manpain these days. You just cannot.

(Can't weigh in on TNG, though. I know nothing about any ST flavor that did not include a Spock.)

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st_aurafina: Rainbow DNA (Mutable)


[personal profile] st_aurafina
2011-10-05 07:53 am UTC (link)
Michael Knight had angst, didn't he? Wasn't he repenting for some dark deed in his past? Or am I mixing this up with the Equalizer? (KITT and the Equalizer... woah, I just invented the best crossover ever!) Also, I think the car had a dark side. It went evil this one time.

Oh, wait, this was a serious discussion, wasn't it. Um.

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malnpudl: (malnpudl 'nois by lostgirlslair)


[personal profile] malnpudl
2011-10-05 09:05 pm UTC (link)
*giggling helplessly*

I sort of love your brain.

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thefourthvine: Dogtags with text "thefourthvine." (TFV dogtags)


[personal profile] thefourthvine
2011-10-05 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Are you kidding? As far as I am concerned, random crossovers and evil mechanical twins are always suitable for this journal.

Although I am somewhat resentful that you came up with a crossover for another TV show (I assume) I've never heard of. How can I have heard of SO MUCH TV now and still keep finding out about more of it?

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st_aurafina: Rainbow DNA (Mutable)


[personal profile] st_aurafina
2011-10-05 10:19 pm UTC (link)
How can I have heard of SO MUCH TV now and still keep finding out about more of it?

There was a *lot* of TV in the eighties. *creaks rocking chair* Back in the olden days, we didn't have reality TV to fill the gaps, so they made up shows about intelligent cars and repentant English spies.

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(Anonymous)
2011-10-07 06:50 am UTC (link)
Is it just me, or am I the only one who saw KITT as the Dark side? She was a snarky smart female car.(???!!) Who was stuck with a really cute, but one sided guy. Of coarse, I saw the premier of this show directly after a funeral, so my view may be warped.

Roxanne Q.

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kernezelda: (FS width)


[personal profile] kernezelda
2011-10-07 03:35 pm UTC (link)
KITT was male. ;) Michael and his BFF, KITT the car.

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staranise: A star anise floating in a cup of mint tea ([personal] Star anise)


[personal profile] staranise
2011-10-05 08:00 am UTC (link)
This is not what you asked for, but I had to share. The Wikipedia page on the TV series has been vandalized:
Self-made hundredaire Felix Scott rescues puppies and police detective ALF after a near fatal kitten lick to the face, giving him a new identity (via plastic surgery) and a new name: Michael Knight. Felix selects ALF to be the primary puppy caretaker in the pilot program of his Knight Industries-funded public justice organization, the Foundation for Cute and Adorable (FLAG).

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happydork: A graph-theoretic tree in the shape of a dog, with the caption "Tree (with bark)" (Tree (with bark))


[personal profile] happydork
2011-10-05 08:34 am UTC (link)
*laughs* I think what I like best is how few words have been changed!

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staranise: A star anise floating in a cup of mint tea ([personal] Star anise)


[personal profile] staranise
2011-10-05 08:37 am UTC (link)
TBH? I've never seen the show, and I had to google just to make sure it was vandalism.

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thefourthvine: Thefourthvine, with flowers.  (TFV flowers)


[personal profile] thefourthvine
2011-10-05 10:09 pm UTC (link)
I admit it, I'm giggling. I'm glad you went to Wikipedia in time to see that!

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wordweaverlynn: (cinema)

Notes from the days of 3 channels and B&W


[personal profile] wordweaverlynn
2011-10-05 08:20 am UTC (link)
I've missed a great deal of TV, but when I stopped watching in about 1975 it was possible to be a TV character without angst. Mary Tyler Moore, anyone? How about the characters on Bonanza? Gilligan's Island? I Love Lucy? They had dilemmas but no angst.

TV is a different world now. MASH and All in the Family changed it. Then the X-Files (yeah, I did watch some TV in the 1990s) changed it again. I stopped watching again around 1997 and was astonished.

I'm sure there are flip, empty-headed sitcoms still, but you don't have to choose between them and PBS.

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thefourthvine: Thefourthvine with a glowy background. (TFV glowy)

Re: Notes from the days of 3 channels and B&W


[personal profile] thefourthvine
2011-10-05 10:12 pm UTC (link)
MASH and All in the Family? Weren't those - um, sitcoms? I mean, MASH was about a war, but still - comedy, right?

(And all I really know about Gilligan's Island, I have to admit, is that BB watched it in her youth and much admired a musical version of Hamlet that they did, and that in Galaxy Quest, the aliens said, "Oh, those poor people." But I admit that "musical version of Hamlet" does not exactly equal dark and angsty in most cases.)

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montanaharper: stylized dreamwidth letter d (dreamwidth d)

Re: Notes from the days of 3 channels and B&W


[personal profile] montanaharper
2011-10-06 03:27 am UTC (link)
...and much admired a musical version of Hamlet that they did...

Oh oh oh! The best part about the musical version of Hamlet? Is that it was set to Bizet's Carmen. No, really. (And for an extra bonus, have this clip, too.)

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blushingflower: (stargate vagina)

Re: Notes from the days of 3 channels and B&W


[personal profile] blushingflower
2011-10-06 01:35 pm UTC (link)
MASH and All in the Family were (esp. the latter) but they changed the way a lot of themes were dealt with on television. All in the Family esp. dealt with a lot of politics and race issues. The generational conflict was played for laughs, yes, but in a way that also pointed out the issues.
MASH (the movie esp) used the Korean War setting to talk about the Vietnam War and war in general.
Sitcom characters can have angst and manpain too.

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greenygal: (Jesse Quick)


[personal profile] greenygal
2011-10-05 08:22 am UTC (link)
Hmm. Michael has an angsty backstory (and to some degree an angsty present), no question, but I don't remember a lot of dwelling on the angst--you'd have the occasional episode where he broods about What Could Have Been, but mostly he seemed happy to be out there fighting crime with his car. (Which I was totally with him on; I adored that car. Snarky artificial intelligences get me every time.) And while he's certainly got his fair share of hotheadedness and impatience with The Rules--you know the type--I honestly don't remember anything I would class as a Dark Side.

The show I always remember in connection with KR (because I watched them together) is MacGyver, and that took place on a similar angst model--the hero definitely has angst, mostly the deaths of family members plus a tragic gun-related incident in his past. But while these things are important issues to the character, they're not important to the show, which only brings them up occasionally. (Well, I mean, the doesn't-like-guns thing comes up a lot, but more in a "put that away" manner rather than staring hauntedly and having flashbacks.) And he spectacularly fails to have a dark side.

I wonder if the rise of continuity had something to do with it? I mean, you can have a main character who is Driven By Angst by just having him be angsty a lot, but you can definitely work with it more if you're doing emotional arcs and ongoing storylines, something the above shows were really not given to.

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pepper: MacGyver hiding from a sign saying "commitment" (Mac commitment)

Drive-by commenter


[personal profile] pepper
2011-10-05 09:58 am UTC (link)
I wonder if the rise of continuity had something to do with it?

I would bet money that's the reason. Knightrider, MacGyver, The A-Team, all those kind of shows were episodic - they rarely worried about much continuity of character (this week Mac is an archaeologist! This week he's a physicist! This week he's teaching hockey! This week he's observing eagles!). Mac's friends kept popping their clogs, and he lost more than one potential Love Of His Life - and then next week it's back to wacky hijinks with his crazy neighbours, or whatever.

Someone explained it to me once as those shows being before everyone had a video: you could miss a week and it didn't really matter because basically the same stuff happens again next week. Once you get rid of the weekly reset button, characters in TVland have to be a bit screwed up, with everything that happens to them.

But also, angst is partly in the eyes of the viewer. The A-Team is pretty tragic if you think about it seriously, but I mostly watched it for when they welded armour onto a truck and painted it to look like an ice-cream van. *g* They didn't take mental trauma seriously - shows like Farscape did.

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brownbetty: (teapot)


[personal profile] brownbetty
2011-10-05 04:10 pm UTC (link)
What, so MacGyver had gun-angst too? Is this a RDA thing?

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greenygal: (Jesse Quick)


[personal profile] greenygal
2011-10-05 05:08 pm UTC (link)
Probably not, since O'Neill's tragic past originates from when the character was Kurt Russell, and it's not like it ever stopped O'Neill from carrying guns or shooting people. But yeah, MacGyver was notoriously opposed to using guns, and in fourth season they revealed that this was due to having been involved in the accidental shooting death of a friend when he was a kid.

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archersangel: (RDA)


[personal profile] archersangel
2011-10-06 09:29 pm UTC (link)
it might have been for macgyver (i vaguely recall that he mentioned he didn't like guns & they put it in) but in the sg-1 verse it was sort of built-in with the death of o'neill's son. but since he was military, he couldn't refuse to carry a gun.

BTW i heard that they used the p-90 because it didn't look like a typical gun & RDA like it better because of that fact.

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gwynevere1: (Default)


[personal profile] gwynevere1
2011-10-05 06:41 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if the rise of continuity had something to do with it?

I also wonder if the rise of the Internet lead to the rise of continuity. With the Internet, people from all around the world came together to discuss shows, and the collective mind noticed errors and inconsistencies more than any one individual could. Also, there are whole databases and reference sites dedicated to shows, which makes them easier to follow and, hence, makes continuity easier. I seem to recall both continuity and the Internet rising around the same time, circa late 1990s.

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thefourthvine: A Katamari Damacy cousin, with text about Cousin TFV. (TFV Katamari Damacy)


[personal profile] thefourthvine
2011-10-06 05:51 am UTC (link)
But while these things are important issues to the character, they're not important to the show

Ooo. Interesting. I totally get the distinction.

And I can see that continuity could easily have something to do with that. (Although I had no idea there was a distinct era before continuity; I had assumed there were always shows that had emotional and character continuity, and other shows that hit the reset button at the end of every episode. Not so?)

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sassbandit: Show Pony, from the Killjoys-verse, doing rollerskate kung fu, with the words "Sass Bandit" superimposed. (sassbandit1)


[personal profile] sassbandit
2011-10-05 09:29 am UTC (link)
Does Richard Castle have angst? Beckett certainly does but I don't think Castle does, really. Is it just one angsty character per show that's required? How major does the character have to be?

Just mentally going through the shows I've watched recently... Community is moderately free of Dark Angsty Pasts.

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paxpinnae: Inara Serra,being more awesome than you. (firefly, pwn)


[personal profile] paxpinnae
2011-10-05 02:50 pm UTC (link)
They don't have Dark Pasts, but the folks on Community have plenty of angst. The show just deals with it in a very light-handed manner. The whole debate about Pierce being in the study group, Annie's anxiety about having too much of her life planned out, Jeff's shitty relationship with his father, Britta's struggle between living her ideals and trying to become a responsible job-holding adult - all of them have dealt with some pretty angsty issues.

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lydiabell: (purple flower)


[personal profile] lydiabell
2011-10-05 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Does Richard Castle have angst?

I really love how much angst Castle doesn't have about not knowing who his father is. Makes a nice change.

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thefourthvine: Letters: TFV. (TFV letters)


[personal profile] thefourthvine
2011-10-06 05:56 am UTC (link)
See, I think Jeff still qualifies as the Dude with Main Character Darkness, because he has the angsty job back story and the constant struggle with his dark side (aka his dickishness). No idea about Castle, though.

And, in general, my sense is that only one person needs serious angst, and generally it is the white guy with the biggest role. Like, the dude who is going to be three times the size of everyone else on the DVD cover.

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eleanorjane: The one, the only, Harley Quinn. (grin, harley)


[personal profile] eleanorjane
2011-10-05 12:11 pm UTC (link)
Regarding that picture - OH GOD WHY DID I CLICK AUGH AUGH AUGH.

Which is to say, BRB, inflicting it on everyone I know.

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laurajv: Don't give me any wild ideas! (wild ideas)


[personal profile] laurajv
2011-10-05 07:48 pm UTC (link)
I know, right? I IM'd it to 15 people IMMEDIATELY.

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sage: man ray's photo, "hand on mouth". (art: man ray)


[personal profile] sage
2011-10-05 12:27 pm UTC (link)
Okay, this is going back before TV, but I've been listening to the old Gunsmoke radio show, which is super-dark and desperately angsty. Matt Dillon is openly lonely and depressed, his only love interests are the madam of the local house of ill repute, he can't trust any of his acquaintances because odds are he'll have to arrest them, and he frequently doesn't save the day at all.

It's a far cry from the made-for-television Gunsmoke, which tended to be much more light-hearted and typically had a happy ending where justice was done. The radio version was a lot grittier and more "western noir" -- it was totally aimed at fans of Philip Marlowe and Sam Spade, and it was normal for all those protagonists to have a mysterious, aloof, and vaguely tragic past...although they didn't generally reveal too much of it. Pre-1950s, there was a lot more male emoting, but 1950s media -- maybe a cold war thing? -- told the men to be stalwart where ten years before they could cry on screen.

What's interesting to me is that the radio show really holds up...and it might be because Marshal Dillon is such an angst-muffin. You feel for the guy.

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musesfool: crews and reese and coffee (it's all in the caffeine)


[personal profile] musesfool
2011-10-05 01:19 pm UTC (link)
I think the rise of the angsty main character started in the 80s with Hill Street Blues, and possibly Cheers - Sam was a recovering alcoholic and they did occasional episodes where he was in danger of falling off the wagon. Before that, I think it was mostly the mainstay of daytime soaps.

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kellyfaboo: Photo Shadow of me July 09 (shadow)


[personal profile] kellyfaboo
2011-10-05 01:25 pm UTC (link)
I seem to remember a goatee'd Micheal as an evil version. Wasn't he an evil clone or brother or something?

Thanks. You've gotten me to think about Knight Rider far more than I have wanted to since I caught 60 seconds of a USA re-run a few years back. *shudders*

Sometimes I have to wonder what I was thinking when I was a kid making my entertainment choices.

But in short, I think TV had all these things when it was episodic, it just didn't have the narrative through line until it was decided to be a motivating factor for an episode.

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greenygal: (Jesse Quick)


[personal profile] greenygal
2011-10-05 01:54 pm UTC (link)
Michael's evil twin was the son of the guy who'd arranged Michael's whole crimefighting-with-car thing, and the reason they were twins was that when Michael was being given reconstructive surgery at the beginning of the show, the guy evidently said "Hey, let's make him look exactly like my son, who is in prison for life! I may have very obvious psychological issues!" Sensibly he did not explain this reasoning to Michael at the time.

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kellyfaboo: Photo Shadow of me July 09 (shadow)


[personal profile] kellyfaboo
2011-10-05 02:05 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Ya, I sort of remember that now. Which makes the Devon and Michael relationship a little creepy.

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greenygal: (Jesse Quick)


[personal profile] greenygal
2011-10-05 02:17 pm UTC (link)
Oh, it wasn't Devon; he was just carrying on for the founder guy, Wilton Knight, who died in the first episode. Devon is just the guy who knew about all this and didn't say anything. But then again, given that it was apparently a done deal by the time he knew about it, and that the guy who'd had it done died soon after, and the guy Michael looked like was supposed to be locked away forever...I can see why he might have honestly felt like explaining to Michael wouldn't help anything. But it's still pretty creepy.

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archersangel: (so wrong)


[personal profile] archersangel
2011-10-06 09:33 pm UTC (link)
it was very creepy.

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lydiabell: (purple flower)


[personal profile] lydiabell
2011-10-05 03:25 pm UTC (link)
As others have mentioned, TV has changed a lot. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the rise of continuity, but it's also a question of our tastes changing as the nation (talking U.S. here) has gone through economic and social stresses. I watched this TED Talk recently in which Lauren Zalaznick showed the correlations between what was on TV and what was going on in society at the time. I'm not sure I buy everything she's saying, but the correlations are interesting.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/lauren_zalaznick.html

Even in Sports Night, a half-hour comedy show, Danny had a dead brother, a bad relationship with his parents, and some kind of major emotional breakdown including acting out on air. He had plenty of angst! He had a dark side!

Most of that didn't really do the show any favors, either. I've heard that Danny's storyline in the second season came about due to a falling out between Josh Charles and Aaron Sorkin, but I don't know if that's true.

Last edited 2011-10-05 03:27 pm UTC

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brownbetty: (teapot)


[personal profile] brownbetty
2011-10-05 04:02 pm UTC (link)
My extensive knowledge of Dark Rider canon (ie, I once read a fanfic) indicates his dark side is his tragic and unconsummated desire for his car to turn into a dude so he can be fucked by K.I.T.T.

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murklins: white woman with elephant head (elephant in the room)


[personal profile] murklins
2011-10-05 04:17 pm UTC (link)
AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Of course it is.

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turlough: Gerard Way giggling, ComiCon, July 2010 ((mcr) *giggle*)


[personal profile] turlough
2011-10-05 07:20 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if it's the same story I happened to read yesterday...

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brownbetty: (teapot)


[personal profile] brownbetty
2011-10-05 07:39 pm UTC (link)
Aahhah, I don't think so, the one I read had a distinct lack of MyChem in it.

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turlough: Gerard Way, Spin photoshoot, 1 October 2010 ((mcr) my eyes are shining bright)


[personal profile] turlough
2011-10-05 09:02 pm UTC (link)
I'd never even heard about the show before and the day after I've read a Dark Rider fusion this post shows up on my reading list. What are the odds?!

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thingswithwings: gorgeous watercolour of batman and robin kissing (batman - a boy in a cave)


[personal profile] thingswithwings
2011-10-05 04:38 pm UTC (link)
First of all, it is one thing to warn for a picture of a dude with a puppy on his dick, and it is QUITE another thing to warn for David Hasselhoff with a puppy on his dick. I wish I had known it was the latter before I clicked. /o\ Puppies on dicks are fine by me, but seeing David Hasselhoff's thighs is NOT. ;)

I have this sort of nebulous set of beliefs about political conservatism and the way it tends to create the ground for cop dramas and police procedurals - there are tons of American police procedurals in the 50s, almost none in the 60s, lots in the 70s and 80s, dropping off again in the early 90s (except for Law and Order) and now you can't spit without hitting one. And I think cop-related dramas tend to foster the kind of angst narratives you're talking about - it all comes from the hard-boiled detective with the gritty past and the quasi-legal relationship to "his" city which he has to save "from itself." I think the link between angst and crimefighting of whatever kind (whether it's the Winchesters or CSI) is pretty strong - a serial killer killed my wife etc., now I have to track him down, blah blah, and its political conservatism is grounded in the idea that crime needs to be punished (not 'criminals need to be rehabilitated') and that we have to ignore the rules to do it.

For example, Batman is an incredibly accurate predictor of the way these portrayals of angst move in cycles, often with the political climate. 40s/50s Batman, all dark knight angsty. 60s Batman: Adam West, camp, bright colours. The 80s sees the reboot of the Dark Knight, now Darker and Knightier, and then the Tim Burton Batman. Late nineties, the movie franchise starts moving camp and colourful again with Batman Forever/Batman and Robin (both amazing films which I love) and then it springs back again with the new Christian Bale films. (Someone who knows more than I do about the animated series and the non-flagship comic series could maybe say more about this). If America ever sees another era of liberalism and revolution, you might see more TV where angst isn't required. Till then, I dunno - right now the crimefighter-angst is so prevalent that those storylines spread out and infect pretty much all the other genres as well.

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paxpinnae: Inara Serra,being more awesome than you. (firefly, pwn)


[personal profile] paxpinnae
2011-10-05 06:55 pm UTC (link)
I also could have done with knowing that the puppy was a Shar-pei. THAT'S an association I never wanted to make in my life.

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anatsuno: a women reads, skeptically (drawing by Kate Beaton) (skeptical reader)


[personal profile] anatsuno
2011-10-05 11:37 pm UTC (link)
I'm commenting on this mostly just so I get a copy of it in my inbox to keep forever, because I know I'll want to find it again someday. :)

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pointysparkles: moon with transparent background (moon, teen wolf)


[personal profile] pointysparkles
2011-10-05 07:29 pm UTC (link)
What about Psych? For a long time the closest thing Shawn had to angst was his not entirely ideal relationship with his dad and the fact he couldn't get Juliet to date him.

Of course, then they had to go and do emergency angst-injections every season finale, but they're usually resolved fairly quickly and I kind of like to pretend they didn't happen. ;)

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out_there: B-Day Present '05 (Out_There box by Delurker)


[personal profile] out_there
2011-10-05 09:45 pm UTC (link)
Anyway, what I didn't realize when I put the song on the mix is that it is, at least according to BB, a song written by a car to David Hasselhoff.

Hee! It took me a few sentences later to realise you were talking about Knightrider. I don't remember much, but I think BB's right: like Charlie's Angels, it was an action show where the angst was minimal and the hero was good and most things got sorted at the end of an hour.

I think there are certain shows that still have this lightness factor these days. Most of ABC's work, really -- I mean, Psych is a fun, upbeat show where the angst may pop up briefly, but it's very quickly solved. (White Collar isn't much darker, really, although it tries to pretend it has some ongoing angst I don't think the audience buys it or cares.)

Mind you, shows that want to emotionally invest the audience seem to need the angst. Shows that are there to be fun and entertaining -- drop-in, drop-out watching, really -- can et away with snark, humourand action instead.

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innocentsmith: picard and q in bed together, having a canon conversation that sounds fantastically slashy out of context (st:tng: p/q out of context)


[personal profile] innocentsmith
2011-10-05 11:52 pm UTC (link)
The above discussion about ST: TOS makes me wonder about the 90s-era Star Treks. Of course there you've got ensemble shows, not so much main characters. But some characters are main-er than others, and get more development of all kinds.

It's sort of interesting to think about it in terms of who the writers might have been thinking of as the main character. Picard doesn't really have a Tragic Past early on, but then at the start the intention was to have him be the wise, sedate father-figure, and have Riker handle the action stuff and seducing of hot alien ladies and whatnot. But then, surprise surpise, the audience LOVED Patrick Stewart and in some cases were not at all opposed to him having romantic plots, so they started doing that more. And then midway through you get the HUGE trauma of his assimilation by the Borg, and the guilt of Wolf 359. He's massively well-adjusted, so he takes an episode to get his shit together and deals with it like a grownup and it doesn't really go into manpain territory (well, except in First Contact). But it's an underlying thing for the rest of the series (and other series as well).

Data is probably the other most popular TNG character. And he had a tragic past (the colony where he was built and grew up was massacred) and an evil twin (responsible for said massacre)!

In DS9, Sisko has a classic Tragic Past - dead wife killed in the battle Picard was responsible for when Borgified. Kira is pretty open and okay with her past as a terrorist, though. In Voyager, I don't remember if Janeway has a tragic past, but when Seven of Nine shows up and is immediately hugely popular, she's got dead family angst and Borg assimilation angst.

So I guess the lessons to take away from this, if you ever find yourself in the Trekverse, are:

1. Do not ever be a colonist or an independent explorer, especially if you've got an adorable spunky kid or newly built android you're taking along. Because you will die horribly.

2. Fucking Borg, man. *shakes head*

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archersangel: i made this at iconmagic (trek)


[personal profile] archersangel
2011-10-06 09:46 pm UTC (link)
In Voyager, I don't remember if Janeway has a tragic past

he father died when she was a teen. other than that, i don't think she did.

while we're on the subject of star trek, in enterprise archer's father died when he was young (don't know how much of a tragic past that is) and t'pol once killed a man in self-defense, couldn't handle the guilt & had to have the memory suppressed.
and since the show got canceled after just 4 years who knows what issues the other crew members might have had.



Last edited 2011-10-06 09:47 pm UTC

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cuda: McKay and Sheppard from Stargate: Atlantis (McShep YES)


[personal profile] cuda
2011-10-25 02:48 am UTC (link)
Sorry, just... um. You listen to No More Kings. At least one song!

*helplessly happy squee*

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[identity profile] annaalamode.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 06:51 am UTC (link)
I guess you could have them but why would you? EVERYONE needs an evil twin. (Or the Sorkin land equivalent of a dead sibling and GUILT.)

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[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 09:56 pm UTC (link)
...Should I feel left ou,t, then, because I don't have an evil twin?

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[identity profile] annaalamode.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 10:01 pm UTC (link)
I think we all should.

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[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 10:15 pm UTC (link)
Do you think we could maybe recruit ones?

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[identity profile] annaalamode.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 10:23 pm UTC (link)
I could be your evil twin. I've had a life long ambition to be one!

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ext_1740: (tree me)


[identity profile] stillane.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 03:16 am UTC (link)
I keep a fake goatee on hand, just in case I ever need to be my own evil twin. *nods*

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[identity profile] corvis-corvax.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 04:22 am UTC (link)
Having been my own evil twin for many years now I cannot recomend it highly enough. Though it does get complicated when trying to remember what to remember what to wear while being which twin. (hint: purple and apple green are the supervillian colors!)

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[identity profile] innocentsmith.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 12:00 am UTC (link)
Stephin Merritt agrees with you.

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tinx_r: (Riptide, riptide)


[personal profile] tinx_r
2011-10-05 07:21 am UTC (link)
Oh, Michael has a total tragic back-story! For starters, he has a new face and is dead as far as the rest of the world is concerned. His partner was shot down beside him (pre-series), he was a Green Beret and was in Vietnam as a spy or intelligence or something like that. The angst potential is endless... hence his partner is a car, not a human :)

(There is guy/car slash for this fandom.)

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tinx_r: (Riptide, riptide)


[personal profile] tinx_r
2011-10-05 08:00 am UTC (link)
Oh! I forgot to mention! He totally has an evil twin in a couple episodes!!

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[identity profile] madripoor-rose.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 01:06 pm UTC (link)
I always thought it was a little creepy that the old man had Michael Holt's plastic surgery done to look exactly like his son.

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[identity profile] jeanniewal.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 08:04 am UTC (link)
I was just going to comment and say the same things :) Michael was a real tragic hero when I was 11...

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[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 10:02 pm UTC (link)
BB wondered if she'd perhaps just missed the angst and dark side and tragedy because she was, you know, fairly young when it aired, and also mostly interested in the car. APPARENTLY SO.

Man, it must have been SUCH A LOSS for screenwriters when they could no longer plausibly give a hero-aged dude a background in Vietnam. They had to look to other sources for their tragic back story angst!

(Seriously? Guy/car slash? Do you have links?)

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tinx_r: (Riptide, riptide)


[personal profile] tinx_r
2011-10-05 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Everyone, I think, was most interested in the car. KITT was fantastic. I wanted a car-buddy so bad!

I know re Vietnam. Talk about pre-packaged angst of any flavor, all in one handy snack-size, ziplocked bag... (My icon? Those boys also, Vietnam angst. Ah, there's a lot to be said for cutting one's teeth on 70's/80's TV...)

Re links, I can find them, and for you? I will. Watch this space.

:)

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tinx_r: (Riptide, riptide)


[personal profile] tinx_r
2011-10-06 01:37 am UTC (link)
Try this for starters

:D

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ext_2180: laurel leaf (laurel)


[identity profile] loriel-eris.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 07:22 am UTC (link)
Years, since I've seen Knightrider, but Michael totally had angst! I think Michael was actually dead (not in zombie way!). Michael Surname-I-Can't-Remember was this ordinary guy, and then one day there was an accident? (attempted) murder? something involving fire? involving Michael and everyone thinks he died, but he's actually rescued by ythe Knight Foundation. Michael wakes up hours? days? months? years? later and discovers that his previous life has gone and he's now Michael Knight. (And I think there was some sort of plastic surgery - he doesn't look like his old self - which is why I think there was fire (and a badly burned Michael) involved.)

I can't remember how Devon (the Guy In Charge Of Knight Foundation) got Michael to start Fighting Crime; whether Michael agreed because he didn't have anything better to do, or if there was A Vendetta (see above re: murder?).

Also. I think Michael had a Love Of His Life when he 'died' which was also cause of some angst.

And all of this is what I remember of the proper Knightrider. I know nothing of the new one.

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[identity profile] jeanniewal.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 08:06 am UTC (link)
And didn't said "Love of Life" reappear some time and have to saved from some bad guy, by Michael, and he couldn't tell her who he really was?? Oh, the heartbreak!

(It was the 80s, ok??)

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ext_2180: laurel leaf (laurel)


[identity profile] loriel-eris.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 07:42 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure she did! I was utterly devastated watching that ep.

(I am so totally with you on that statement! *g*)

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[identity profile] corvis-corvax.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 04:29 am UTC (link)
Two different girls. The original love of his life BETRAYED him and shot him in the face leading to plastic surgery, she died of a rebounding bullet at the end of the pilot while trying to shoot the re-faced Michael Knight. Second girl was in several episodes then the whole "We're in Twue Wuve but cannot be together for whatever reason thing.

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ext_2180: laurel leaf (laurel)


[identity profile] loriel-eris.livejournal.com
2011-10-09 04:09 pm UTC (link)
I totally did not remember this! If I end up rewatching, I'm totally blaming you! *g*

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[identity profile] corvis-corvax.livejournal.com
2011-10-09 09:32 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, when the christening fairys were handing out useless gifts I got an encyclopedic memory for crap TV and movies. It's a curse, really, I still can't remember my multiplication tables but I remember that the answer to the limeric/riddle the blond chick had to finish in the TV show Probe was "How do I keep getting myself into these situations!?"

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[identity profile] jeanniewal.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 04:54 am UTC (link)
:-D

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[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 10:05 pm UTC (link)
There's a NEW Knight Rider? Seriously? I mean, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised - they've had to move on to rebooting '90s stuff because they bled the '80s pretty much dry. But. Surely the day of One Dude and One Car on a Mission to Save the World is gone?

Also, BB wondered if she'd perhaps missed the angst, on account of a) being young when she saw it and b) being more interested in the car. I have since learned that indeed it is so! So I was right: you can't be a lone crimefighter without angst and a dark side and a tragic back story. It just isn't done. Emily Post would never approve.

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ext_1740: (tree me)


[identity profile] stillane.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 03:32 am UTC (link)
Even better? Between old KR and new KR, there was a show about TEAM KR. They were Five or So Dudes and Five or So Cars/Trucks/Conjoined Twin Motorcycles on a Mission to Save the World (in a Giant Transport Plane). And they all had angst and issues. And the cars were all cooler than the humans.

These guys, they believe in their running themes.

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[identity profile] corvis-corvax.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 04:32 am UTC (link)
Did they all have evil twins? In the original KR the car, Devon, The mechanic chick, AND Michael -ALL- had evil twins.

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ext_1740: (tree me)


[identity profile] stillane.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 04:57 am UTC (link)
I had to look it up, I confess, but now that you mention it... they went the "be your own evil twin route" with a computer virus episode where they all tried to kill their people. There was a generic evil twin car that preceded them - and canonically convinced everyone that they'd just been stupid lucky the first time around with KITT, so they'd better decrease the awesomeness of all future models lest they decide to be baddies - but nothing so massive as a one-for-one, through-the-mirror match up.

That... is a lot more than I ever thought I'd be talking about this show. It was pretty bad, but it was on late enough at night that it could pass for the fantastic kind of bad. *g*

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[identity profile] corvis-corvax.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 06:07 am UTC (link)
I love fantastic bad.

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ext_2180: laurel leaf (laurel)


[identity profile] loriel-eris.livejournal.com
2011-10-09 04:08 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. New Knightrider. I think they have the new main character being Michael's son? Maybe? I wanted to like it, I mean, I loved real!Knightrider. But yeah, no. I think I got thru maybe half the first ep, and decided Oh Hell No. I can't remember what tipped me over the edge, it may have been "Ok, so our audience is teenage boys, so let's write / film this show accordingly." (I think there was an element woman = window dressing, and wearing as little as possible. I could be completely misremembering, so don't take my word for it.)

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[identity profile] vardoger.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 07:33 am UTC (link)
You COULD have TV without those things, as long as it was back before about 1995 or so. Then they released an upgrade and now TV no longer functions without the angst plug-in.

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[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 10:10 pm UTC (link)
Man, someone needs to make an instant TV hero generator. Here's his tragic back story! Here's his angst! Here's his dark side! Now give him a common name and an uncommon job and you are ALL SET.

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[identity profile] daegaer.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 07:44 am UTC (link)
Even the mention of the puppy/Hasselhoff picture is giving me flashbacks. I now have to go and be a responsible adult at work, and all I can see is that image, burnt into my brain. (Hee!)

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[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 10:13 pm UTC (link)
It is one of those things that you can never forget. I mean, before last night it had been years since I'd seen that picture. And yet, as soon as BB mentioned that Michael was played by David Hasselhoff, my brain went to the Puppy Place.

*shivers*

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[identity profile] jeanniewal.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 08:10 am UTC (link)
OMG that picture :( Those puppies look like they'd stretch out all those wrinkles if they got aroused - yuck!! David Hasselhoff has ruined wrinkled puppies for me!

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[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 05:49 am UTC (link)
David Hasselhoff has ruined wrinkled puppies for an entire generation. In nursing homes in forty years we'll all be talking about David Hasselhoff with puppies on his dick.

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[identity profile] salambander.livejournal.com
2011-10-05 08:51 am UTC (link)
I'm intrigued... You should share the playlist on 8tracks.com (and link us to it).

:D

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[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com
2011-10-06 05:54 am UTC (link)
If I can figure out 8tracks - it is currently fighting me - I will do so!

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