thefourthvine: Batgirl looking thoughtful.  (Batgirl in glasses)
Keep Hoping Machine Running ([personal profile] thefourthvine) wrote2011-06-09 03:56 pm

The Women Men Won't See

My boyfriend for the first part of my college career was a comic book collector, which meant that he had three billion carefully stored comic books, all of which had to be read with the same care you'd use when handling the original copy of the Declaration of Independence, and then replaced in their individual plastic sleeves and their specific spot in their long boxes. (There was a special technique for getting them into the boxes undamaged.) He was extremely anxious for me to share his interest in comic books, and he spent a fair amount of time telling me about them, giving me important ones to read, and, of course, taking me to comic book shops.

Because he was a collector, he was well known to the comic book shop owners (I believe they gave little cries of joy when they saw him coming), and I was introduced as his girlfriend and welcomed into the fold. I spent a lot of time browsing at random while he chatted with the guys behind the counter, and I was young enough that it didn't occur to me that it might be significant that it was always, always guys behind the counter.

At that age, I was an easy sell on basically any story you cared to show me. I was happy to have new things to read. And I grew to love the comic books themselves, and especially the characters in them. My boyfriend didn't have a clue how to sell me on comic books - really, he should have pointed to two guys and used the words "unresolved sexual tension" and that would have done it - but he did pay attention to what I responded to. I loved Rogue. She was exactly the right character for an angsty sixteen-year-old girl. In particular, I obsessively read the issue in which she's trapped in her own brain; in there, it's strongly implied (or possibly outright stated; this was a long time ago, after all) that she's been raped. I loved that - Rogue had been raped, some time in her past, and she'd certainly made mistakes, but she was still tough, still on the team, still saving people. "Fucked up but strong" pretty much describes the Rogue characterization of the time, and that was exactly what I wanted from my female characters. I was fucked up, and I wanted to be strong, and there was Rogue, being my wish fulfillment in spandex.

My boyfriend assumed it was the rape itself that interested me, and offered more books featuring women being raped or abused. Since they weren't the heroes, and it wasn't about them getting over it - they were being rescued, or, you know, not being rescued - it didn't interest me. But I liked that he tried. And I was young enough that it didn't occur to me that it might be significant that he could find so many plotlines about women being raped or abused, and that all of them were told in precisely the way guaranteed to turn me off.

So, you know how it goes: we broke up. I ended up with Best Beloved, the woman I'm still married to. And I didn't realize it right away, but comic books were one of the things I lost in the divorce.

No, not the actual books themselves; I kept the ones that were mine, and in fact I still have them, five moves later. Not even the mutual interest in them - Best Beloved was a comic book reader, too, until she had so many series cut off from underneath her that she gave up and turned to things less likely to destroy her loves, like, you know, Fox. What I lost was my pass into the world of comic books.

The first time I tried to go into a comic book store without my boyfriend, I discovered that I had a superpower in the comic book world. I was invisible. I could not get anyone to acknowledge that I existed. There were guys behind the counter, yes, but they kept up their argument about Green Lantern while I stood in front of them. I had to interrupt, finally, to ask my question, and then I discovered my second superpower: I had a wall of silence surrounding me. They exchanged glances, gestured vaguely to the back of the store, and went right back to their argument. I left without finding the book I'd come for, but that's just as well; I don't think, based on future experiences, I could have gotten them to take my money if I'd found it.

I thought it was just that comic book store. Then I thought it was just that one and the next one, the one where I discovered that I could not force my money into the hands of the guy behind the counter; he walked away from the register when I approached with books in hand, then disappeared into the back of the store for, apparently, eternity. It was crazy; it was like I'd gone back in time a hundred years, and they still had Wolverine everywhere.

In the third store where my new superpowers came into play, I had what was, at that time in my life, an unaccustomed thought. Why am I doing this? I should not have to beg people to take my money.

I realized I didn't want to have to force my way in through doors that had "NO GIRLZ ALOWD" signs on them, doors I apparently needed a male escort to get through. I loved comic books, but I didn't love them enough to put up with that shit. So I didn't. And eventually I didn't love comic books anymore, either.

But that was more than fifteen years ago. Things have changed. I've seen the campaigns online. I've seen the maps of girl-friendly comic book stores. (Although, seriously, just that these exist is an indication of a major problem in the industry; you don't see maps of girl-friendly hardware stores, for example, because all hardware stores are girl-friendly. They employ women! They take our money! They provide us with non-condescending advice! They have gloves in our size! At least all the ones I've been in, and I'm a homeowner, so you can see that I spend a lot of time in hardware stores. The question isn't, "Which hardware store will treat me like a person despite my gender?" It's, "Which hardware store is closest to my house and stocks the items I need?" If you have to ask the former question, there is a big problem.) I've even read articles about how to get girls into your comic book shop, so clearly owners now understand that accepting money from only a fraction of the people interested in giving it to you is not always the world's most successful business strategy.

That's why, yesterday, I decided to stop into a comic book store. Totally on a whim. Just to see what it's like in there these days, how things have changed since the days of dialup. I thought I might want to get something with Oracle in it, to remember her by.

I walked in towing my unwilling three-year-old son, who had already come to the conclusion that this was a destination unlikely to have any trucks or Pigeon books in it, and therefore did not wish to go in. I blinked, letting my eyes adjust, and, man, comic book store interiors really haven't changed that much. I mean, the posters have - I think they've developed new breast enlarging technology, for starters, and it's not like the breasts were small before - but the interiors are still exactly the same.

"Hi!" the guy behind the counter said in cheerful tones, and I thought: But they have changed where it really matters.

Except he wasn't looking at me. He was looking at my son, who was clinging to my leg. "What can I find for you today?" he asked him. "Spiderman? Superman? Toys?"

"We're here for me," I said. "He's too young for comic books."

"You're never too young for comic books!" he said, still exclusively addressing the earthling. "I bet you like superheroes, huh?" (He doesn't.)

The earthling, apparently feeling threatened, asked to be picked up. I eavesdropped on a few more minutes of conversation that didn't involve me, even though I was the only member of my party willing to talk, and then I left. I pretty much had to; the earthling, distressed by this onslaught of talking despite all his Mama's attempts to redirect the conversation, had his face buried in my neck and was saying, "All done, all done, go home now?" very quietly into my ear. But in the time I was in the store, not one single word was addressed to me, let alone enough words to ask me, say, if there was anything I needed help finding. The guy never even looked at me. I was still invisible.

The only thing that's changed in fifteen years, apparently, is that I gave birth to someone who can be my passport into comic book stores. Except he doesn't want to be, and I don't want him to have to be, so that isn't going to work so well. I'm going to have to remember Oracle with icons and scans and fan fiction, instead of something that costs actual money.

But, hey, reboots happen regularly, and I'm sure Oracle will be coming around again. Eventually. So I'll see you in another decade or so, comic book store guys! In the meantime, thanks for keeping my money in my purse, where it belongs.
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

[personal profile] cathexys 2011-06-10 12:25 am (UTC)(link)
What a great (and sad!) post!!!
musesfool: Stephanie Brown as Batgirl (can't hardly wait)

[personal profile] musesfool 2011-06-10 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I've only tried to buy comics in a comic shop twice, because both times I had that kind of experience and it was gross and creepy. Now that I am actually reading them more frequently, thank god for the internet so I don't have to deal with that kind of bullshit.
polarisnorth: a silhouetted figure sitting on the moon, watching the earthrise ([comics] young justice trio)

[personal profile] polarisnorth 2011-06-10 12:53 am (UTC)(link)
I've been extraordinarily lucky in this regard, mostly because the comic shop I patronized for the last four years could hardly have expected to stay in business if it treated women this way: a lot of its regulars were from the nearby women's college. The guys (and girls) who worked at the shop were totally willing to discuss current comic events with me and rec things. Now that I've graduated and am away from that, though, I'm a little afraid to try the local comic shops. Getting treated like this would be shattering. I can always get comics online, but there's something fun and special about getting titles pulled for you and having them in hard copy.

I'm sorry your experience has been so universally shitty and misogynistic.
jmtorres: From Lady Gaga's Bad Romance music video; the peach-haired, wide-eyed iteration (Default)

[personal profile] jmtorres 2011-06-10 12:59 am (UTC)(link)
I am not a regular comics purchaser but I once managed to go into a local shop, select items, and pay for them. I am wondering if the fact that they had a fairly large manga section had anything to do with it; shojo manga does sell to girls successfully. (I can't remember if I bought any manga, though I know I poked around the area some. I did buy some Sandman.)
indeliblesasha: Bright highlighter-pink tulips with yellow tulips in the background surrounded by bright green foliage (HP/SGA - Same Shit)

[personal profile] indeliblesasha 2011-06-10 01:17 am (UTC)(link)
My husband is sad on your behalf. He can't fathom why any geek boy anywhere would reject any female, ever, interested in comics. Or games. Or, you know, geek things.
lydiabell: (Default)

[personal profile] lydiabell 2011-06-10 01:17 am (UTC)(link)
You know what I like about this thread? For all the people who are saying that their local comics shops aren't like that, not one person is using that to try to invalidate [personal profile] thefourthvine's experience or claim that she must just be oversensitive or whatever. Not that I would expect anyone here to be that kind of asshat, but there are just so many places online where that wouldn't be the case.

::hugs everyone::
Edited 2011-06-10 01:17 (UTC)
petra: Renee Montoya, cartoon lesbian Latina cop, looking angry (Renee - Someone needs a beating)

[personal profile] petra 2011-06-10 01:25 am (UTC)(link)
All of the local comic stores I've visited have treated me like a human, fortunately for them, and one of them even employed a woman back when I cared about comic books, but I know how this feels, and I am appalled on your behalf.

Brb, hugging my action figures.
princessofgeeks: (bitch please by anadapta)

[personal profile] princessofgeeks 2011-06-10 01:26 am (UTC)(link)
ACK! FAIL! This sucks.
ifreet: Black and white picture of a vaulted library (dream of books)

[personal profile] ifreet 2011-06-10 01:27 am (UTC)(link)
Ugh, ugh, ugh. That's horrible and such bad business and unbelievably still happens.

I was very lucky (where 'lucky' means 'unable to hang on to any money throughout my teen years'), because the comic shop in my relatively small town did not treat me like an interloper. I hated new guys, though, because they always asked if I needed help finding something, like I couldn't figure out the store on my own. I haven't been a serious comic reader for years, but I still go to them to special order my occasional purchase and recommend them to locals.

When I went to conventions in my nearest Big City, however, sellers/artists/writers often asked me who I was there with. As though I must have been dragged in the door by a boyfriend, brother or father. Surest way to make me uninterested in their tables.
trouble: Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it (Default)

[personal profile] trouble 2011-06-10 01:32 am (UTC)(link)
It took me a long time to sort out that the reason no one wanted to sell me comics wasn't because I was a total comics n00b but because I came with breasts.
thelostglove: (355)

[personal profile] thelostglove 2011-06-10 01:32 am (UTC)(link)
That fucking sucks. I've never had a bad experience like you, and that includes some time as the girl behind the counter in a small Southern city. I feel really lucky, because comics stores have kind of been a place I can walk into in any town I pass through and start a conversation with the people there, and even when I'm not following the industry as closely, I'd be sad to lose that feeling.
littlemousling: Text of a speech about "women's lib" given by Joyce Stevens (Women's Lib)

[personal profile] littlemousling 2011-06-10 01:32 am (UTC)(link)
My best friend has dragged me, about once a year, into various comic book stores (usually so she can buy X-Files trading cards, because yes, there are X-Files trading cards). And every time I've been kind of blown away by how they manage to stay in business, because we always have to make noise to get any help at all. Since my friend is the shyest of the shy, this usually means me putting on my Serious Face and Asking Very Firmly For Assistance, which--I should not have to do that, and the fact that it works doesn't excuse the behaviour that precedes it.


Okay, wait, there was one exception: at a combo comics/gaming store, my (attractive) friend raised quite a stir among every man and boy in the place by perusing the D&D books--but that's a whole other category of problem, of course.
stewardess: (dc nightwing wtf by jempuu at LJ)

[personal profile] stewardess 2011-06-10 01:40 am (UTC)(link)
Argh. I go to Dr Comics on Piedmont in Oakland, which has a woman manager and female employees -- and where the geeky guy employees are THRILLED to talk to me about Superman. I foolishly thought all comic stores were like that, then I went to the one on Shattuck. THE HORROR.

[identity profile] anna-unfolding.livejournal.com 2011-06-10 02:01 am (UTC)(link)
Oh that would irritate the hell out of me. I have kids, too, and if I were routinely ignored at any store in favor of my kids being prodded, I'd have been out of there, too!

I went into my first comic book store, The Secret Headquarters in Silver Lake (LA). I went there because it is Gerard Way's favorite shop and I was on an MCR pilgrimage of sorts. ANYWAY, a gorgeously tatted out woman at the counter helped my comic-loving gf and me find things for ourselves and my kids. I didn't feel ignored at all, although she did give us space until we asked for help.

Your article/journal entry here is so well-done; I love how you wove the role of women in comics into a piece about female customers! (Female characters are expendable; so are the female clientele??) It is dangerous, however, to draw any conclusions from one visit to one store; I hope if you really are interested in answering your question of "have things changed re: female customers in comic stores?" or if you are really interested in comics themselves, that you don't wait 10 years, but try again, at different times, with different stores, and see if you can have some sort of statistical data to prove your anecdotal experience. You were clearly ignored in your tale, and it matched your 15 year old previous experience of needing a male escort to get attention at all, but is it actually statistically significant? I don't know. My one experience was the opposite of yours (two dykes in a comic store getting lots of help even though not a man was is sight with us, lol). Is my experience more indicative of how things are now, or is yours? We need more data to draw that conclusion.

Loved reading this. Thanks for sharing your writing and experience!!!
existence: sam, sam and fuzzy (advantages of fascism)

[personal profile] existence 2011-06-10 02:41 am (UTC)(link)
I feel so suddenly blessed by all the comic book stores in the area. I should bake the guys cookies, or something. (I have had Real! People! Conversations! with many of them, even when I was tiny and didn't know from Adam.)

which is to say, I hope when you do venture into a store next that it goes better then that. :(
settiai: (Babs -- pervyficgirl)

[personal profile] settiai 2011-06-10 02:47 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, that's horrible. :-/

I had that issue back in Tennessee (partly because, you know, it's Tennessee - there are actually hardware stores there that aren't girl-friendly, sadly enough), but I've been really lucky not to have encountered that at all since I moved to DC. There are three different comic stores that I bounce around between depending on what else I'm doing that day, and I've only felt uncomfortable being inside any of them one time... and that was because of a male customer who seemed utterly shocked that there was a girl there. With boobs! A customer who, I might add, the manager finally told off and asked to leave because he wouldn't leave me alone.
Edited 2011-06-10 02:47 (UTC)
puckling: (Who says girls can't fight)

[personal profile] puckling 2011-06-10 03:24 am (UTC)(link)
Grossface, grossface, grossface. It's awful to hear that happened to you not once but twice. :\

I'm sure Oracle will be coming around again. Eventually.

Ummmmmmm... Ignore current canon for a few years. Maybe five to eight until all the screaming fangirls and boys finally make a dent into DC editorial's thick skulls. Jeeze comics.
lilacsigil: Batwoman, red/black/white art (Batwoman)

[personal profile] lilacsigil 2011-06-10 03:31 am (UTC)(link)
When I was in university and didn't have any money, I wanted to hang around the racks reading comics right in front of a sign that says not to. The male staff never, ever approached me. They told boys and men not to read the comics and I'd just stand there, reading away happily. I guess they really didn't want my money!

(and now that I have money, they still don't want it)
arboretum: (Default)

[personal profile] arboretum 2011-06-10 04:10 am (UTC)(link)
fuckasses

pls excuse my crassness

my patience with the comics industry & with the entertainment biz in general is at an all-time low right now

bluh, you deserve better, & so does the earthling
ybbravo: (Default)

[personal profile] ybbravo 2011-06-10 04:12 am (UTC)(link)
Another drive-by comment of the "Good to know things haven't changed" variety. How entirely unfortunate. :( I'm sorry that happened to you and to the Earthling.

When I started my new high school, the girl who would later become my BFF and I were THRILLED to find out that we shared a love of X-Men. She brought out her collectible cards, I pulled out my video tapes, and together, we decided to brave the world of comic book stores. We started buying comics, and comic-related magazines, and getting subscriptions, and even buying old collector editions in their pristine covers. And I don't remember a single time in which anyone ever attempted to talk to us in any manner. (I'm buying a comic expensive enough it's displayed on the WALL, not stuffed in a rack; you could at least throw out a "So... X-Men, eh?" or two.)

We ended up going to different universities, and our comic book days ended. And part of the reason was that going into comic book stores alone? Ended up feeling really creepy. There's nothing like a bunch of guys staring at you silently.

Actually, my user name comes from my comic book days. My BFF and I decided that our local comic book stores were so difficult to enter that we should approach it like a top secret spy mission, complete with battle plans and secret distress calls and code names. My code name was "Yellow Belly Bravo", hence YBBravo. So at least something good came out of the comic book stores...
jadelennox: Manip of Oracle and Batgirl  (Oracle: batgirl manip)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2011-06-10 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
I'm sorry to say that you've given me perspective into my Oracle sadness, and replaced it with the more important WHY into DC's continuous ability to ignore female customers and potential customers. I forget how privileged I am to have access to one of those awesome comic shops.
soc_puppet: Words "Mad Fangirl" in blue (Mad Fangirl)

[personal profile] soc_puppet 2011-06-10 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
I haven't been in my local comic shop in a good five years or so, myself, but for completely different reasons. I was incredibly fortunate that both local stores I was visiting at the time were inclusive, I just didn't quite know how to communicate with the employees of any gender. And then the regular chain bookstores started carrying manga, and suddenly I didn't have to go somewhere I felt quite so awkward anymore.

And now this post is making me feel like going back, because yeah, they WERE good to me, and I should definitely be supporting local businesses over huge chains - except I still have that awkward "this isn't exactly 'my' space" feeling, and while I've gotten better at talking to people I'm still not very good at it, and a tiny ridiculous part of me honestly thinks one of the employees is going to remember me and ask what other stores I've been getting my comics at behind their back. And. Yeah.

Someday I'll get up the courage to poke my nose in again, though. Someday...
jamjar: (Default)

[personal profile] jamjar 2011-06-10 06:34 am (UTC)(link)
I hate to say how lucky I was with comic book shops, because I shouldn't have to consider myself lucky to be treated like a normal person.

My first one, they set up reserve lists, showed me ones they thought I'd like (showed me Sandman because they saw me with a copy of Good Omens), talked about them, were used to me browsing for ages through the stock and back-stock.

The next couple I went to were big enough that I didn't feel any personal connection, but they were happy to talk to me and I never felt uncomfortable there.

The one I go to now is tiny, but friendly. There's at least one woman that's sometimes behind the counter, they chat, they have my pull-list

In all of them, I was treated like a person and that really shouldn't be something that makes me lucky in my comic book shops, you know? That should be standard.
silentfire: (Default)

[personal profile] silentfire 2011-06-10 06:43 am (UTC)(link)
When I first got into comics enough to want to go out and buy issues, I was incredibly nervous. I'd heard horror stories from female friends who were comics fans about how poorly they'd been treated, and I wasn't sure I even wanted to risk that kind of experience. As it turns out, all three of the comic book stores I frequented in my time as a reader of comics were staffed by helpful, friendly, inclusive people. I never felt as though I was being treated like anything but a fellow fan.

Even though I've been lucky enough to never experienced it firsthand, I know that my fears were not unfounded. I'm glad that not all comic book stores are like the ones you've described, but it's obviously still fairly common, and I'm so sorry you and the Earthling had to endure such a horrible experience.
ravenbell: (Default)

[personal profile] ravenbell 2011-06-10 06:45 am (UTC)(link)
That is awful. I've had a few similar encounters, enough to make me appreciate the really great, friendly shops when I find them. Don't give up hope! They're out there! They're awesome!

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