thefourthvine: Batgirl looking thoughtful.  (Batgirl in glasses)
Keep Hoping Machine Running ([personal profile] thefourthvine) wrote2011-06-09 03:56 pm

The Women Men Won't See

My boyfriend for the first part of my college career was a comic book collector, which meant that he had three billion carefully stored comic books, all of which had to be read with the same care you'd use when handling the original copy of the Declaration of Independence, and then replaced in their individual plastic sleeves and their specific spot in their long boxes. (There was a special technique for getting them into the boxes undamaged.) He was extremely anxious for me to share his interest in comic books, and he spent a fair amount of time telling me about them, giving me important ones to read, and, of course, taking me to comic book shops.

Because he was a collector, he was well known to the comic book shop owners (I believe they gave little cries of joy when they saw him coming), and I was introduced as his girlfriend and welcomed into the fold. I spent a lot of time browsing at random while he chatted with the guys behind the counter, and I was young enough that it didn't occur to me that it might be significant that it was always, always guys behind the counter.

At that age, I was an easy sell on basically any story you cared to show me. I was happy to have new things to read. And I grew to love the comic books themselves, and especially the characters in them. My boyfriend didn't have a clue how to sell me on comic books - really, he should have pointed to two guys and used the words "unresolved sexual tension" and that would have done it - but he did pay attention to what I responded to. I loved Rogue. She was exactly the right character for an angsty sixteen-year-old girl. In particular, I obsessively read the issue in which she's trapped in her own brain; in there, it's strongly implied (or possibly outright stated; this was a long time ago, after all) that she's been raped. I loved that - Rogue had been raped, some time in her past, and she'd certainly made mistakes, but she was still tough, still on the team, still saving people. "Fucked up but strong" pretty much describes the Rogue characterization of the time, and that was exactly what I wanted from my female characters. I was fucked up, and I wanted to be strong, and there was Rogue, being my wish fulfillment in spandex.

My boyfriend assumed it was the rape itself that interested me, and offered more books featuring women being raped or abused. Since they weren't the heroes, and it wasn't about them getting over it - they were being rescued, or, you know, not being rescued - it didn't interest me. But I liked that he tried. And I was young enough that it didn't occur to me that it might be significant that he could find so many plotlines about women being raped or abused, and that all of them were told in precisely the way guaranteed to turn me off.

So, you know how it goes: we broke up. I ended up with Best Beloved, the woman I'm still married to. And I didn't realize it right away, but comic books were one of the things I lost in the divorce.

No, not the actual books themselves; I kept the ones that were mine, and in fact I still have them, five moves later. Not even the mutual interest in them - Best Beloved was a comic book reader, too, until she had so many series cut off from underneath her that she gave up and turned to things less likely to destroy her loves, like, you know, Fox. What I lost was my pass into the world of comic books.

The first time I tried to go into a comic book store without my boyfriend, I discovered that I had a superpower in the comic book world. I was invisible. I could not get anyone to acknowledge that I existed. There were guys behind the counter, yes, but they kept up their argument about Green Lantern while I stood in front of them. I had to interrupt, finally, to ask my question, and then I discovered my second superpower: I had a wall of silence surrounding me. They exchanged glances, gestured vaguely to the back of the store, and went right back to their argument. I left without finding the book I'd come for, but that's just as well; I don't think, based on future experiences, I could have gotten them to take my money if I'd found it.

I thought it was just that comic book store. Then I thought it was just that one and the next one, the one where I discovered that I could not force my money into the hands of the guy behind the counter; he walked away from the register when I approached with books in hand, then disappeared into the back of the store for, apparently, eternity. It was crazy; it was like I'd gone back in time a hundred years, and they still had Wolverine everywhere.

In the third store where my new superpowers came into play, I had what was, at that time in my life, an unaccustomed thought. Why am I doing this? I should not have to beg people to take my money.

I realized I didn't want to have to force my way in through doors that had "NO GIRLZ ALOWD" signs on them, doors I apparently needed a male escort to get through. I loved comic books, but I didn't love them enough to put up with that shit. So I didn't. And eventually I didn't love comic books anymore, either.

But that was more than fifteen years ago. Things have changed. I've seen the campaigns online. I've seen the maps of girl-friendly comic book stores. (Although, seriously, just that these exist is an indication of a major problem in the industry; you don't see maps of girl-friendly hardware stores, for example, because all hardware stores are girl-friendly. They employ women! They take our money! They provide us with non-condescending advice! They have gloves in our size! At least all the ones I've been in, and I'm a homeowner, so you can see that I spend a lot of time in hardware stores. The question isn't, "Which hardware store will treat me like a person despite my gender?" It's, "Which hardware store is closest to my house and stocks the items I need?" If you have to ask the former question, there is a big problem.) I've even read articles about how to get girls into your comic book shop, so clearly owners now understand that accepting money from only a fraction of the people interested in giving it to you is not always the world's most successful business strategy.

That's why, yesterday, I decided to stop into a comic book store. Totally on a whim. Just to see what it's like in there these days, how things have changed since the days of dialup. I thought I might want to get something with Oracle in it, to remember her by.

I walked in towing my unwilling three-year-old son, who had already come to the conclusion that this was a destination unlikely to have any trucks or Pigeon books in it, and therefore did not wish to go in. I blinked, letting my eyes adjust, and, man, comic book store interiors really haven't changed that much. I mean, the posters have - I think they've developed new breast enlarging technology, for starters, and it's not like the breasts were small before - but the interiors are still exactly the same.

"Hi!" the guy behind the counter said in cheerful tones, and I thought: But they have changed where it really matters.

Except he wasn't looking at me. He was looking at my son, who was clinging to my leg. "What can I find for you today?" he asked him. "Spiderman? Superman? Toys?"

"We're here for me," I said. "He's too young for comic books."

"You're never too young for comic books!" he said, still exclusively addressing the earthling. "I bet you like superheroes, huh?" (He doesn't.)

The earthling, apparently feeling threatened, asked to be picked up. I eavesdropped on a few more minutes of conversation that didn't involve me, even though I was the only member of my party willing to talk, and then I left. I pretty much had to; the earthling, distressed by this onslaught of talking despite all his Mama's attempts to redirect the conversation, had his face buried in my neck and was saying, "All done, all done, go home now?" very quietly into my ear. But in the time I was in the store, not one single word was addressed to me, let alone enough words to ask me, say, if there was anything I needed help finding. The guy never even looked at me. I was still invisible.

The only thing that's changed in fifteen years, apparently, is that I gave birth to someone who can be my passport into comic book stores. Except he doesn't want to be, and I don't want him to have to be, so that isn't going to work so well. I'm going to have to remember Oracle with icons and scans and fan fiction, instead of something that costs actual money.

But, hey, reboots happen regularly, and I'm sure Oracle will be coming around again. Eventually. So I'll see you in another decade or so, comic book store guys! In the meantime, thanks for keeping my money in my purse, where it belongs.
amberfox: picture from the Order of Hermes tradition book for Mage: The Awakening, subgroup House Shaea (Default)

[personal profile] amberfox 2011-06-10 07:30 am (UTC)(link)
My sister and I have both had both good and bad experiences with comic/game stores. The store that wouldn't actually let me come more than a yard into the store before they asked me to leave. The GameStop that accused her of lying to use her discount for the male friend who was with her, because no girl would play a fighting game. But there were also the tiny store where I had 6 or 7 subscriptions and the not-so-tiny store where I regularly spent $100 at a time. And a couple of times $300+: Sailormoon artbooks figured heavily on that one.

Right now we have one that really doesn't care one way or the other, but they never go out of their way to be rude. In fact, that particular store makes it clear that it's not that I'm a girl, it's that I'm not a regular, and they'd rather hang out with their regulars than offer to help a stranger. *shrug*
delurker: (Default)

[personal profile] delurker 2011-06-10 07:42 am (UTC)(link)
:( I haven't experienced that at all! Of the last four shops I went into:


In Sydney:
1. Strange old shop where the college-aged guy behind the counter ignored everyone, including the two guys talking right next to him, and the downstairs guy suggested another shop I could try when they didn't have what I was looking for in stock.

2. Really awesome store in which the guy behind the counter was quite helpful.

Here in Canberra:
3. Totally awesome shop in which I was asked a couple of times, by the female manager and the male assistant, if I needed any help.

4. Pretty good shop in which the girl behind the counter complimented my wallet, and the guy on the door during free comic book day asked if I wanted a sticker and grinned happily at me.

(The last three also sold manga. It does seem to be a good indicator.)
buddleia: (Feminist Angst)

[personal profile] buddleia 2011-06-10 07:53 am (UTC)(link)
Oh my god how I recognise this.
vass: Small turtle with green leaf in its mouth (Default)

[personal profile] vass 2011-06-10 08:26 am (UTC)(link)
I've been in hardware stores that weren't girl-friendly. To the extent that it was a big surprise when I swallowed my environmentalist principles and went to the big hardware chain store that does the unsustainable logging, and discovered that they had female staff, and treated me like a person.

Other places where a woman might feel not totally comfortable: the weight room of the gym, the local computer hardware store. I might not lift as heavy as some of the guys in the gym (yet) but OH MY GOD their form is bad - RANGE OF MOTION, FUCKERS, HAVE YOU HEARD OF IT? To be honest, they haven't said a word to me. There haven't even been a lot of looks. It's just that I'm very, very aware that I'm the fattest person in the room, and the only woman lifting dumbbells heavier than ten kilos (a question to that woman doing that exercise with the tiny, plastic-covered 1kg dumbbell: do you carry your own grocery bags? Are you aware that they're much heavier than that dumbbell?)

The computer hardware stores: there are two of them I go to. I don't think they're less friendly to women than they are to men. It's just that they don't believe in being friendly to anyone. They want you to announce exactly what model and part you want in the first ten seconds, so you don't hold up the line. Which is great if you do know what you want, and have social anxiety and just want to get this done and go home. But not so great if you'd actually like some professional advice.
copracat: Modesty Blaise from the comic La Machine (princess)

[personal profile] copracat 2011-06-10 08:53 am (UTC)(link)
Secret: once, long ago, when I was a wee girl and I was having a bit of a freak out about womanly things I ran away to a comic books store to breathe in the uncomplicated, ignorant fumes of boy hormones, to feel invisible and unchanged. It made me so calm.

I'm a different woman now.
goodbyebird: Batman returns: Catwoman seen through a glass window. (Community protesting this shit)

[personal profile] goodbyebird 2011-06-10 10:02 am (UTC)(link)
Jesus. That is utterly unacceptable. I am so sorry you had to deal with that douchewad.
athenejen: iAthena (Default)

[personal profile] athenejen 2011-06-10 10:44 am (UTC)(link)
It makes me so sad to hear that you had this experience. It doesn't surprise me that there are comic book shops out there like this, but then, that's almost the saddest part, how unsurprising it is, despite the fact that my personal experience has been almost entirely completely different and so often positive that my underlying assumption (confirmed the overwhelming majority of the time) really is that any random comic book or gaming store that catches my eye will treat me like a person. And yet there is always that little niggling fear in the back of my head whenever I go into a new one that I'll discover that it's one of the ones that fail, because the handful of experiences I did have like that were so very unpleasant (and also because of stories like yours and like some of the commenters in this post). The worst was actually in Tokyo at an erotic manga shop, I think that was the first and only time I'd ever felt so actively uncomfortable that I had to leave the store within a minute or two of entering (which is a pity because I really did want to buy some porn!). It was just so silent, and so full of guys of varying ages, and so devoid of women I swear I could feel the guys all furtively watching me. Ugh.

I wish I could gift you a shop like one of my favorites for your local area. I also wish I weren't broke at the moment, because this post made me want to call up several of them and order lots and lots of things to help support them.
ekaterinn: amanda from highlander peering over sunglasses, 'whatever.' at the bottom (as if!)

[personal profile] ekaterinn 2011-06-10 02:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I just - I can't even. Earthling is 3! He doesn't have any money! You, however, DO.

I haven't been in a comic book store in years, either, though I never had trouble getting the guys (and yes, it was always a guy) to take my money. But otherwise, I was pretty much ignored, yes. (I was also usually buying manga instead of American comic books, which may have had something to do with it).
kellyfaboo: Photo Shadow of me July 09 (Default)

[personal profile] kellyfaboo 2011-06-10 02:19 pm (UTC)(link)
This is why a)I never got into mainstream comics and b) I stopped reading indy comics when the guy I was sort of dating and I split and he stopped supplying me. I wasn't just ignored, I was treated like an interesting specimen.

Awkward.

But what blows my mind is that comic books actually do require a degree of literacy and manual dexterity to read that a 3 year old probably hasn't quite managed yet. So obviously you were there for YOU.

Except girls are invisible therefore you weren't even there.
cereta: Barbara Gordon, facepalming (babsoy)

[personal profile] cereta 2011-06-10 04:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah. There's a reason I fairly quickly abandoned trying to keep up with comics through a brick-and-mortar store. It just wasn't worth the puzzled stares and brusque responses.
treewishes: All season tree (Default)

[personal profile] treewishes 2011-06-10 06:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Great post! I tried (briefly) to join the local Gay Sci-Fi group, and got a bizarre silent treatment that I've never understood - until now.
I am geordie at stasia... if you see what I mean.

I have seen both sides of this. A co-worker about 10 years ago wanted to buy a Honda minivan, she had a kid when she was 16, or at least she may as well have. She was 16, her sister was 15 and her mother handed her brother over to her completely. So she took him to wherever he needed to go on her way to school and dragged him around while she did her engineering degree. Smart and capable 4'11" Chinese girl. By the time I met her he was 12 and she was 28. She suspected she wouldn't be treated seriously in a car dealer. How right she was. We walked in together, she walked up to a salesman and told him what she wanted. He addressed his reply to me. I looked him directly in the eye and said "why are you talking to me when my sole role here is to make sure you treat her seriously since she is the customer and she has the money and she has the need". He looked so confused.

But then I've shopped for sewing machines. I could not get any response from the woman selling them. I asked, stasia got the answer. Like she was a ventriloquist or something. My doctors treat me like an underage kid when stasia is present, it's actually quite funny, they tell her all the important stuff and I am just a spectator. It's actually kind of funny.

There's a lot of hidden and 'acceptable' discrimination and if you aren't on the receiving end how would you ever know?
holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)

[personal profile] holyschist 2011-06-10 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Fantastic essay.

This is painfully familiar, and the reason I never got seriously into mainstream comics, gaming, or (even more difficult to find a female-friendly store), model building. I have at various points found reasonable comics or gaming shops, but the best reaction I've ever found in a hobby shop was baffled stares.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2011-06-10 08:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. I couldn't get the boys to stop talking to me when I went to comic book stores. Stop reccing at me. Stop trying to tell me about your favorite comics. Stop hitting on me and leave me the hell alone to decide if I want to buy this gaming book or a graphic novel. Stop asking me if I need anything; if my answer was negative the first half-dozen times, asking a seventh time won't change a thing. Please don't tell me about your character. Please don't tell me about your favorite comic book. Please stop following me around the store, in fact, you are a creepy little fuck and I'm getting stalker vibes.

For the longest time, I couldn't go into a comic store without receiving unwanted male attention that I was presumed, by my very existence, to be encouraging. I'm now older, fatter, no longer wearing my Catholic high school uniform in after school trips to the comic store, and often in there with my husband and/or son. I am, in fact, quite relieved to be invisible.

This is not an example of how much awesomer and hotter and specialer I am to have gotten male attention in a comic book shop. Because, ugh, I am not an Exceptional Woman who is better and different than all those other women. This is an example of how women just can't win, because being treated like an ordinary person - by which I mean man, because male is the established default - is well-nigh impossible. You're either invisible or you're sexualized.
Edited (Clarification.) 2011-06-10 20:33 (UTC)
johncoxon: (Default)

[personal profile] johncoxon 2011-06-10 09:00 pm (UTC)(link)
This post makes me so, so glad that my local comic shop is run jointly by a woman and a man!

[personal profile] amaliedageek 2011-06-10 10:08 pm (UTC)(link)
This is way too familiar.

(On a somewhat related note, have you seen these e-cards? With a slight modification, they're all too appropriate.)

May I link this? I know a couple of comics artists and this might give them a clue.

(Anonymous) 2011-06-10 11:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh does this bring back memories. I was pretty fortunate that I got to know the owners of my local shops pretty well, so they did not ignore me. (I also spent a hell of a lot.)

But you've described my first experience at a comic book convention to a tee. After waiting 15 minutes to get some attention from the Comic Book Guy ("CBG") who was chatting with his cohort, not customers,the conversation went like this:

Me: "Can I take a look at that Hulk 181?" (Most collectors know this as the first appearance of Wolverine.)

Comic Book Guy (CBG): "I have some nice Wonder Woman issues."

Me: "Uh no, I would like to see the Hulk 181."

CBG (giving me a very skeptical look): "The new Wonder Woman books are really good."

Me: "I don't want to look at Wonder Woman. I'd like to check out the condition of your Hulk 181."

CBG (looks at me then at cohort): "You really don't want to look at Wonder Woman?"

Me: "Oh well. I was looking for a Hulk 181 to go with my Giant-Sized X-Men 1, X-Men 94, and Amazing Fantasy 15, but seeing how you have no interest in helping me, I'll find another seller."

[identity profile] kabutar.livejournal.com 2011-06-11 12:20 am (UTC)(link)
This is horrible!

But I'm just curious, where do you live? I went in to comic stores in Toronto and multiple ones in San Francisco / Bay Area, and never noticed anything out of the ordinary...

(Anonymous) 2011-06-11 12:54 am (UTC)(link)
Interesting. I haven't been in a comic book store in a loooooong time (and perhaps I should visit the local establishment just to see what happens), but I *have* been to the local tabletop game store, and in the past a Wizards of the Coast store, which I think would be very similar in terms of clientele and staff. I felt like a turkey leg in a dungeon - pretty much every male clerk zoomed up to me with a bright and disturbing smile, asking me if they could help me find ANYthing I needed. The attention was almost excessive, to the point where I'm kinda uncomfortable walking in if I just want to browse!

[identity profile] rcade [typekey.com] 2011-06-11 12:59 am (UTC)(link)
I'm surprised that you had that experience today. When I was growing up in the '80s and going to comic book stores, it was extremely rare to see female fans. I know some of the more socially inept or obnoxious clerks were unwelcoming. But these days I see young females buying comics and manga often. At Lone Star Comics in Dallas the store's products and clientele are way more inclusive than they were back in the day, and some of the workers I've met are female.

Dealing with other people's gender expectations are a pain in the ass. I was a stay-at-home dad for a while, and I got to experience some of what you were experiencing from stay-at-home moms and some working males.
archersangel: (geek girl)

[personal profile] archersangel 2011-06-11 02:05 am (UTC)(link)
i'm a woman who's not into comic books, but i was both saddened and disgusted by your treatment. as well as baffled; they don't want to sell stuff?

recently i accompanied my brother to a video game store & was thrilled to see a young woman working there. i've read that girl gamers get no respect, especially on video game forums.

you (or someone. me?) should should link to this post over at geekgirls http://geekgirls.dreamwidth.org/
Edited 2011-06-11 02:18 (UTC)
miriad: shep actually asleep by ciderpress (Default)

[personal profile] miriad 2011-06-11 02:24 am (UTC)(link)
I have to confess that I have never had that experience in a comic shop. The three I visited in Ann Arbor were super excited to have me as a customer (circa 1997) and I eventually found employment at my favorite shop (2000-2004).

It makes me really sad to hear that you were ignored then and treated badly now. I guess I based my opinion on the comic book reading world on my own experiences and those seem to be outside the norm.

My experience was that women/girls in the store weren't unusual but were more rare than men/boys. We had a shop policy of saying hello to everyone and when the counter wasn't busy, to ask if anyone, male or female, needed help. I know that many of the guys had really amazing conversations with female fans and helped new female fans/readers discover the books of their hearts. I know that I was able to assist both men and women as an employee there and was able to hold my own with the hardcore fans. So, long story short, it was pretty great and sadly, I guess, not normal.

Have faith, though. There are great shops out there and there are amazing comic book readers of all genders, shapes and sizes that want to know you and want to share their passion. Hopefully, you will cross paths with them soon. *hugs*

[identity profile] midnightlynx.livejournal.com 2011-06-11 02:30 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, that's pretty fucked up. I'm sorry you had to go through that, multiple times.
My home-base comic shop is happy to help people of any gender buy comics. 1/3 third of the staff (though there's only three employees) is female as well.

(Anonymous) 2011-06-11 03:03 am (UTC)(link)
Great post. I'm sorry that this happened to you. I've never had problems in comic Book stores, but then, I don't exactly frequent them either.

But gaming - ah, I know all about that. I'm Robin Wood, and did a fair amount of illustration for the gaming industry at one time. (Covers for Dragon Magazine, and so on.) So I used to go to GenCon, the big gaming convention that was held in Lake Geneva back in the day.

I'd be sitting behind my table, and young men and boys would constantly come up to me and say, "Robin Wood! He's my favorite! When's he going to be back?"

I would tell them I was Robin Wood, and about half would be horribly embarrassed that they had assumed I was male. The other half, though, would say, "No you're not!"

One was really vehement, and kept assuring me that he'd seen Robin earlier behind the table, and described my husband. Finally I suggested he leave until Michael got back, and I was sure he'd be able to help the kid with whatever he wanted.

When Michael returned, I barely had time to tell him about the kid before he was there, holding out his program book, and begging for an autograph. He also told him, (giving me a dirty look) that he didn't know who that woman was, but he knew she wasn't Robin.

Michael signed his book, "Michael Short, ha ha." And he left looking very puzzled.
100indecisions: my chains are broken (Default)

[personal profile] 100indecisions 2011-06-11 03:43 am (UTC)(link)
I've been lucky enough with the main comics store where I live that I've never had any negative experiences--the store does seem to be populated mostly by guys, but I haven't noticed any problems when I wanted to buy something, and at least one girl does work there (although she was pretty thrilled to meet a fellow female geek, so she's probably the only one).

Oddly, the only times I've discovered I also possess the superpower of invisibility have been at the vet (with a female receptionist) and at a place where I was getting my tires changed (where at least one of the three or four people behind the counter, none of whom was always busy with the phone or other customers, was a woman). As far as I know neither of those situations had any major gender issues, although I'm more likely to ascribe apparent discrimination to my age rather than gender, because I'm 24 but look a lot younger, I guess. Although that tends to happen more with like...being scolded for picking up merchandise to look at it rather than being ignored.

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