thefourthvine: Two people fucking, rearview: sex is the universal fandom. (Default)
Keep Hoping Machine Running ([personal profile] thefourthvine) wrote2013-11-12 10:40 am

[Rant] In Defense of Bad Writing

A long time ago, I had a lot to say in rants about how people were DOING IT WRONG and should NOT WRITE THIS WAY but rather THIS OTHER WAY. (And, if I'm gonna be honest, those rants are all still there, just waiting for me to type them. Let me tell you about the Should You Use the Pluperfect? flowchart I made the other day. Or not, because honestly, TFV, nobody wants to hear that.) I was all, "People! Write better!"

Sorry, past me -- you were wrong. What I should have been saying was, "People! Write more! (Even if it's really bad!)"

Because, yes, I still think the word sensitized needs to be left to lie fallow for a decade. Where it can maybe cavort with its friend, lave. I still sometimes want to ban thesauruses. I still feel like maybe those weeping cocks should see a doctor, or perhaps a therapist.

But these days, I also think we're lucky to have those stories. I probably won't be reading them, but I'm happy they exist, for three reasons.

Writing is good. People are writing! For fun! Good news! Seriously, if I had spent more time writing down the hideously painful Mary Sue fan fiction I dreamed up when I was a wee teen, I might have spent less time on, you know, drugs and sucking the cocks of random strangers without protection. I'm always happy to see someone making better choices than I made.

Maybe you're now saying, "Okay, fine, but do they have to post those Mary Sue stories where I can see them?" If so, you're being a dick. Cut it out. The Archive of Our Own is not the Archive of Just What You Want to Read. It's the Archive of Fanworks. Is it a fanwork? Then it belongs there! And if you're incapable of scrolling past something, it's not that the Mary Sue writers are in the wrong place, it's that you are. (Also, I'm sorry, but I don't know where would be the right place for you. Everywhere is going to have stuff you don't like, because tastes are individual and all that. Maybe the internet just isn't for you.)

Crap is important. Sturgeon's law is right, but it misses the point. Ninety percent of everything has to be shit. That's how you get the 10% that's good.

Your favorite writers, fan fiction, published fiction, published fan fiction, whatever -- they didn't start out writing that way. There was a time when they wrote unspeakably awful crap. Writing unspeakably awful crap is how you learn to write only moderately awful crap, and then eventually maybe decent stuff, and then, if you're lucky, actually good things. There are not two classes of people, those who are good writers and those who are bad writers, so that all you have to do to have only great stuff is scare away all the bad writers. There are people who used to write bad stuff, and there are people who are currently writing bad stuff, and there's a lot of crossover between the two. Some of the second category will one day be the first category. (Also, tomorrow some of the first category will move back to the second. No one hits it out of ballpark every time.) If you want to read new good stuff tomorrow, encourage the people writing bad stuff today. (And also maybe help them get betas. Betas are great.)

And, no, those people don't have to hide their work away until it gets better. They can share it with anyone who wants to read it. If they want to post it, they should. Wanting to is reason enough. (Although if you want another reason -- posting is how community happens. Which is how things like betas happen. People who share their work get better faster.)

Crap is a sign of life. New bad stories are a sign that this genre -- fan fiction, the genre I adore the most - is alive and well. Bad stories mean new people are trying to write in it, and people are trying to do new things with it, and maybe new people are joining the audience, too. When only the best and most popular are writing in a genre, it's on its deathbed. (See: Westerns and Louis L'Amour.) I want this genre to be here forever, because I want to read it forever. So I'm happy that teenagers are posting Mary Sue stories to the Archive of Our Own.

Does that mean you have to be happy? Nope. I can't make you do anything. (I can think you're wrong, but hey, being wrong on the internet is a time-honored tradition among our people.) But when you start making fun of a writer and bullying her in the comments of her story, simply because she's writing something you think is bad and embarrassing, well, that's when I say: shut the fuck up or get the fuck out. Because she's not a problem. She's just doing what we're all doing -- having fun, playing with words, throwing something out there on the internet to see if other people like it.

But you. You're trying to stop someone from having fun. You're trying to shame people into not writing anymore. And that, folks -- that is the definition of shitty behavior. (Mary Sue fantasies, on the other hand, are just the definition of human behavior.) It's bad for people, it's bad for the future, and it's bad for the genre. So you're a problem.

Please go away, problems, and let all of us write out our ids out in peace.

(And, yes, this was triggered by one specific story and some of the responses it's getting on the AO3. But it applies to all of them, all the fan fiction we don't like out there. Okay, I'm done.)
toft: graphic design for the moon europa (Default)

[personal profile] toft 2013-11-12 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
*cheers you*
rhi: a woman dancing, legs stomping out the beat and skirt flaring (dancing)

[personal profile] rhi 2013-11-12 06:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Preach it. Absolutely all of this!
samjohnsson: It's just another mask (Default)

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-12 06:57 pm (UTC)(link)
::examines::

Yup, perfect.

::wanders off in search of a pluperfect rant::
samjohnsson: It's just another mask (Default)

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-12 07:04 pm (UTC)(link)
When it comes to rants, I always have needs, darling. I mentioned the other day in class that English has six tenses, and you'd think I was speaking Xhosa.

You should have heard me last week - one of the other adjuncts was telling his students that they could use EBSCO and JStor, but nothing they found on Google Scholar would be usable. I went a little loopy.

And that's before getting me started on topics such as splitting the infinitive or clause-final prepositions, or slavish adherence to the subjunctive or to accusative relative pronouns.
samjohnsson: And shooting them doesn't make it better. (Random Stupid)

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-12 07:22 pm (UTC)(link)
They could only use peer-reviewed articles in journals that maintain a print edition. Even sources such as major newspapers of record, like the Times or the Post, weren't allowed. But journals published by Elsevier were fine, since, you know, those were "the traditional format".

See also my icon, by the end of the discussion.
samjohnsson: It's just another mask (Default)

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-12 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)
The fact that the MLA, the APA, and the CMS all have standardized citations for tweets tells me much the same. (And yet, the APA still completely whuffs it on personal communications and interviews.)

I mean, yeah, if a student cites http://dhmo.org/, they're in for a ribbing. But that they can't use the Globe or National Geographic?
soc_puppet: Words "Language Barrier" in yellow (Language Barrier)

[personal profile] soc_puppet 2013-11-12 08:23 pm (UTC)(link)
The fact that the MLA, the APA, and the CMS all have standardized citations for tweets

This is the second best thing I've read all day. (The best was seeing that a favorite author still had a fic available in [livejournal.com profile] fandomaid's current Buy-It-Now fundraiser while knowing that I had the funds to make it mine, but this is definitely up there.)
soc_puppet: Words "Baseless Opinion" in orange (Baseless Opinion)

[personal profile] soc_puppet 2013-11-12 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Really, the fact that official rules exist at all gives me great joy.
frostfire: cuneiform tablet (Default)

[personal profile] frostfire 2013-11-13 01:29 am (UTC)(link)
From the cuneiformist: probably my absolute favorite source in the WORLD is an online concordance of Hittite tablets with attached metadata and uploaded photos. THANKS INTERNET, YOU ARE AN IMMEASURABLE BOON TO SCHOLARSHIP.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2013-11-13 02:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Um. Is this publicly available or is it behind a paywall? If it's publicly available, could I trouble you for a link? Not a cuneiformist here; just a fan of that general area of the world's history.
frostfire: cuneiform tablet (Default)

[personal profile] frostfire 2013-11-13 05:13 pm (UTC)(link)
It is publicly available, but it is also, um, in German, and I'm not sure how accessible it really is to the layperson? There's lots of abbreviations and stuff. But - okay, here's the link, and if you want to look at tablets, maybe it'd be best if you search by CTH number? That's Catalogue de textes hittites, and there's a list of all the numbers and what they mean here, but that's also in German, sorry. Anyway, not all the tablets have good pictures, but some of them really do, and if you click on the little camera picture in the leftmost column (if it's red that means there's a picture uploaded) you can see them.

The parent site is the Hethitologie Portal Mainz, which has a lot of other links, although again it's mostly in German and mostly designed for specialists. If you want a site in English for laypeople, though, you might try hittites.info? They're pretty decent, and they've got history and maps text translations and stuff.

Hope all that's helpful! It's always awesome when people are interested in the Hittites (the best of all ancient civilizations!).
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2013-11-13 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)

Thank you! This should actually help with fic that's percolating in the back of my mind, to be absolutely honest.

And thanks for the warning that the other site is in German. I don't speak a bit of that particular language. But the site for laypeople will be just as amazing, I'm sure!

china_shop: Goat: may I butt in? (Butt in)

[personal profile] china_shop 2013-11-12 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd like to hear it too!
anatsuno: a women reads, skeptically (drawing by Kate Beaton) (Default)

[personal profile] anatsuno 2013-11-12 09:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I am still slobbering for your flowchart! And the rant that goes with it. :D
lovepeaceohana: Eggman doing the evil laugh, complete with evilly shining glasses. (Default)

[personal profile] lovepeaceohana 2013-11-14 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Here to +1 this request for a pluperfect rant, especially since I kinda like it (multiple instances of "had had"s excepted).
abbylee: (Default)

[personal profile] abbylee 2013-11-12 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I accidentally ended up at an open mic night at a local coffee shop and I remember my reaction was: urgh, this is not at all my thing and I want to leave, but look at how awesome all these people are together.

I don't want to read writing that doesn't grab me, but I sure as fuck want to encourage it :) Just like I hated the idea that my childhood activities should only be worthwhile if I was going to be a professional. And just like my favourite part of my family wedding this weekend was dancing with all my generations of family with various levels of competencies.

Plus, everything in life, we get better from practice. Start at different points, work at different paces, but you need practice and community to excel. It's how I've learned to supervise and train: praise someone and praise someone, and as they gain confidence in both you and themselves, then you can start adding in the occasional recommendation.
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

[personal profile] cathexys 2013-11-12 07:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Wonderful rant!!! I wholly agree with you. Plus, your kink is not my kink, and that goes for writing too!

However, the one thing that does annoy me and frankly could disappear is tiny regular updates. Please finish a chapter and have it be a chapter (or, even better a story!) Same goes for podfic. Every day there's a new update on this one story, and every day I'm excited and then realize it's that story again... Or maybe that's YMMV too?
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

[personal profile] cathexys 2013-11-12 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
So, now that I looked at the comments. Really nasty and just not OK. Otoh, the one thing that did kinda annoy me was what I just said in my previous comment. This story seems to be farther written on Wattpad (yes I looked there a couple days ago to see if it was finished there :), and at that point the daily chapter updates are annoying. No justification for bullying (because that's frankly BS--there's shitloads of stuff I'll never read on AO3 and I'm happy for all of it!), but there's the thing of creating fic and then there's the thing of how you share it.

(Sorry to bring my pet peeve into this discussion...of course I am a firm defender of any and all fic. All the power to self inserts, ffnet epics, and Wattpad first writing attempts!!! And I read more of them than I should just so I have a sense of what all gets written...)
jenna_thorn: Jayne, armed. text reads: let's be bad guys (let's be bad guys)

It may be ymmv, but we're at the same gasoline station...

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-12 07:16 pm (UTC)(link)
As much as I love the idea of feeds from AO3 (pairing specific, because I am that sort of reader, yes), this is why I can't use it. Because there are a very few writers who update often with one to two hundred word chapters of an endless wip with my preferred pairing in the background and a summary that makes me flinch.

I respect her right to post her epic, one droplet at a time, and I certainly wouldn't go into comments and say anything (I'm preeeeetty sure from the summary I'm not her preferred audience) but man, it's frustrating from a reader pov.
samjohnsson: I am stealthy! (Random Cat Camo)

Re: It may be ymmv, but we're at the same gasoline station...

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-12 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
::nosy support camel sticks his nose in the tent::

The RSS feeds shouldn't be updating for just a new chapter, or even if they edit an existing chapter/work. If they post a new work in the series, it'll ping the feed, but just chapter updates shouldn't. If you've got one that is, let me know?
jenna_thorn: Freya with sword (Frigga)

AO3 feeds

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-12 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't want to out the dribble-epic publicly. Look for a private message, okay?
samjohnsson: It's just another mask (Default)

Re: AO3 feeds

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-12 07:55 pm (UTC)(link)
or send it to http://ao3.org/support - if a feed is updating on chapters, there's something odd going on.
jenna_thorn: hazard warning sign of falling, with jazz hands replacing text. (jazzhands)

Re: AO3 feeds

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-19 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Hi again! I sent a note to AO3 support and referenced this thread. The AOS agents of Shield feed has a 1/? chapter update as of today, though it figures that it's not actually the author I was whinging about. I have a screencap if you need it, since feeds drop off after a few days. Which you probably already know.
samjohnsson: It's just another mask (Default)

Re: AO3 feeds

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-19 09:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, yeah, whever responds will probably want the shot. But I'm confused - that's the first chapter posted - that's when it's supposed to show up in the feed, not at work completion.
jenna_thorn: Mulan, facepalming (oops)

Re: AO3 feeds

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-19 09:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Drat, okay I'll keep an eye for when I spot a 73/? update instead and report it then. Is there a way to cancel a support ticket?
samjohnsson: It's just another mask (Default)

Re: AO3 feeds

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-19 09:17 pm (UTC)(link)
ask the very nice neighborly ao3 staffer to leave a note on it ^^
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

Re: It may be ymmv, but we're at the same gasoline station...

[personal profile] cathexys 2013-11-12 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I think part of my issue is that I still think of an ARCHIVE as something that I look to retain a lasting inventory of fandom whereas for me LJ/DW is more for the spur of the moment things. As a result, I prefer my stories to be finished or, at least, in copyedited form and with some actual content already there...I'd be embarrassed to post anything public that was just spilling out of my mind. And yes, I'm not the world, but the first thing I always do on looking at recent fic is clicking the finished only (best button EVAH!!!)
out_there: B-Day Present '05 (Default)

Re: It may be ymmv, but we're at the same gasoline station...

[personal profile] out_there 2013-11-12 10:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. I have that attitude too -- maybe it is something that comes from being in fandom when LJ/DW was the more dynamic/spur of the moment type of fannish communication and an archive was static and much more trouble to upload to. I mean, I still write like that -- bits of wips posted to my jnl, but once it goes up on AO3 it's ready for the world to see and therefore needs to be finished (at least, to my point of view).
monanotlisa: symbol, image, ttrpg, party, pun about rolling dice and getting rolling (Default)

Re: It may be ymmv, but we're at the same gasoline station...

[personal profile] monanotlisa 2013-11-13 12:51 am (UTC)(link)
Same here; not all of my fic is up on the AO3 -- I've exempted not just older full stories but also more recent, more...experimental bits of writing. And I wouldn't ever post a WIP (but then, I've been burned in the past; clearly there are writers and readers who have no such negative experiences).

havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

Re: It may be ymmv, but we're at the same gasoline station...

[personal profile] havocthecat 2013-11-13 02:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I've been considering posting my old, unfinished WIPs as abandoned works and marking that clearly in the summaries. Which is not what I normally do, but when I haven't updated a story in ten years, I almost feel wasteful letting it sit on my hard drive.
jenna_thorn: auburn haired woman wearing a tophat (fangirl)

unfinished wips

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-13 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I think marking it as abandoned / unfinished at time of posting (or even after, if necessary) eliminates (or at least mitigates) the reader frustration, because it clarifies expectations going in.

I can choose to read (or not!) knowing that I'm not going to get a final resolution, but I do it anyway because I want to roll around in the idea, or word use, or whatever, you know? And I (as reader) know better than to subscribe to it, knowing it's not going to be added to, so I can manage my own emotional attachment thereby.

I've got a couple of WIPs from LJ days that I might do. Question, what do you think about posting what's written as an abandoned work then adding a "notes" or "outline" section, just to show how the story was supposed to end? A reader wanting closure can hit that last chapter, while one who would prefer not to see where the process snapped off can avoid it.
jenna_thorn: auburn haired woman wearing a tophat (fangirl)

archive v journal

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-13 02:25 pm (UTC)(link)
That makes sense, well to me, at least. 8-) I "archive", that is put up on AO3, some comment fic, but stuff like the 15 character crossover meme (which I love and have written words that I'm really really proud of!) tends to stay on DW, because it's scenes, not stories.
jenna_thorn: text: what is my fascination with honor based nudity (ykisnmk(andthatsok))

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-12 07:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I love the little "complete only" clickybox with all the strength in my arms.

there are many stories that don't work for me that will work for others, and stories I love that other people don't.

and I love that fandom (as an amorphous whole - I have no idea who started it) embraced the concept of your kink is not my kink and that's okay. (Though I suppose it says something about me that I have an icon with it as a keyword.) Mostly because I do so love the Mary Sues.

The Archive of Our Own is not the Archive of Just What You Want to Read. Plus, really how could it be? How many among us are now in the only fandom that we've ever been in? That we started in? I've written in what? a dozen fandoms? and read in... I have no way of guessing how many. And while yes, I have iron clad kinks (pun not intended, but I'm leaving it, because it's funny), over the last (counts on fingers, let's go with several, shall we? several years in fandom, I've encountered new fandoms, new source material, new ideas of what can be sensual (or not) and golly, wouldn't it suck for fandom (not just the AO3, but ff.net and Tumbler and I'd never heard of Wattpad until C mentioned it, above) to stagnate like that, to be held to a juried peer review that stifles the damn fine armpit licking (I know, right? And yet, smoking in context!) in order to squelch the ... whatever. My example of the epic being posted in dribbles is really rather off topic. Actually, my entire contribution to this thread has been off topic. Sorry.
samjohnsson: It's just another mask (Default)

[personal profile] samjohnsson 2013-11-12 07:46 pm (UTC)(link)
The Archive of Our Own is not the Archive of Just What You Want to Read.

[personal profile] adina 2013-11-12 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I love the "complete only" check box too, but I wish I could tweak it a little bit to give me "complete or parts 2-10", eliminating "chapter 1/?" and "chapter >10/?". Because I actually like some WIPs, but I don't want to get invested in one before the writer commits to at least a second chapter, and I know that if the first ten chapters didn't grab me the next 90 aren't going to. But I suppose that would be a feature in Archive of Just What I Want. *grin*
taliahale: (Default)

[personal profile] taliahale 2013-11-13 01:52 am (UTC)(link)
Ooh, the "complete or parts 2-10" would be brill. But yeah, pretty in love with the complete only button. There are a handful of authors I'll read in progress, but it's really limited.
mermaid: mermaid swimming (Default)

[personal profile] mermaid 2013-11-12 07:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Hey, just jumping in here to ask: what's the script that greys out WIPs at AO3, please? That sounds like something I'd love to have, if it works in Chrome.

More generally, I'm glad you made this post. That Seguin/OFC story isn't something I'd ever want to read, personally, but the author has every right to post it and I was appalled by the hateful comments left on it.

Also, I'd really like to see the pluperfect flowchart! As I said on Twitter, only persistent, dedicated work by my beta has trained me out of its misuse.
mermaid: mermaid swimming (Default)

[personal profile] mermaid 2013-11-13 12:26 am (UTC)(link)
Yup, that's the one - brilliant, thank you :)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2013-11-12 07:24 pm (UTC)(link)
It's a YMMV too; I don't read a lot of fanfic, but I read a lot of friends' origfic in progress, and small chunks every day can be better than big chunks once in a while, in terms of whether or not I will have time/energy to read it.
kephiso: A glass mural of a FlightRising dragon (Default)

[personal profile] kephiso 2013-11-12 09:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Sorry to just like butt into this here, but could you maybe spare a second to tell me what YMMV means in this context? I just can't figure it out on my own google wasn't a huge help here ("Your milage may vary"? I think I just don't get it *embarrassed*)
Sorry! :(
Edited 2013-11-12 21:32 (UTC)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2013-11-12 09:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, "your mileage may vary"; it means "everyone's experience is different", based on how car commercials will claim that their cars go X distance on Y amount of gas and then small-print write "your mileage may vary".
kephiso: A glass mural of a FlightRising dragon (Default)

[personal profile] kephiso 2013-11-12 09:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Aw, cool, thanks! (English isn't my native language, so I'm sorry I had to ask *blush*)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2013-11-12 09:50 pm (UTC)(link)
No problem. *g* Hell, given my fumble-mouthedness in my second language, I am in awe of your ability to keep up with any of the ways we butcher English to be more convenient to us. ;)
kephiso: A glass mural of a FlightRising dragon (Default)

[personal profile] kephiso 2013-11-12 09:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks! Well, I can only repeat what was basically the meaning behind this post: people were kind to me when I started (after sixth grade), and while I wouldn't want to revisit my early writings in English, I've gotten better over time :) Man, I can't stress how important it is to encourage people!

And English writing's really helping me with school; I wanna study in English once I'm done with high school. But this wouldn't be happening with all the kind people in fandom.

Seriously, I never actually thought about it, but what thefourthvine said is SO TRUE, like, it's applied to me all my life and I didn't realize it and didn't give back as much as I could *shakes head* Well, still plenty of time to rectify that, I guess.

(And aww, don't say that! The most important thing is to go out there and use your second language. People did tease me in Canada--where I spent tenth grade; I've only been back for like four months--but they were kind about it, in a way, and gave me tips and pointers. You just have to dare to speak it, and as always: practice makes perfect :D)
out_there: B-Day Present '05 (Default)

[personal profile] out_there 2013-11-12 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. Interesting. I knew teh phrase and the fannish meaning, but I didn't know it came from an ad reference.
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

[personal profile] cathexys 2013-11-12 10:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, when I was in HP there were so many people just loving epic stories with constant updates. I, otoh, avoid WIPs like the plague. Now betaing a story is very differently, and there are a handful of writers whose WIPs I'll read but they (a) always post substantial updates (like 5-10K instead of 200-500 words) and (b) they have a track record of finishing.

It's less that I don't get that people like WIPs as much as I'm not sure anyone needs to share every daily update... (I read a story yesterday where someone actually wrote at the end, and I paraphrase: This chapter will be longer, but i'm tired now and just wanted to post it. Like, I'd find that annoying on LJ, bc, i think author and readers could wait for 24 hours for the author to, like, proofread and maybe finish, but on an ARCHIVE it's really annoying!
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2013-11-12 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
*shrugs* Depends on how people relate to the archive, I guess. Some people relate to it more formally than others; for some people it rather more IS the equivalent of LJ. It depends on what you're posting for and what you're getting out of it.

Some people (and I've been one of them, for particular stories) would rather a bare-bones update NOW (when we have time to read, when we need some distraction).

Thus, the MMV issue. My point is not that you're wrong; my point is that what you are interacting with as a bug, others are interacting with as a feature.
Edited 2013-11-12 22:19 (UTC)
malnpudl: (Default)

[personal profile] malnpudl 2013-11-12 07:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I love this post the most. *showers it and you with shiny, shiny hearts*
celtprincess13: (Default)

[personal profile] celtprincess13 2013-11-12 07:05 pm (UTC)(link)
*pompoms* Preach it.

Because here's the thing too--if you can read, there's probably a summary. And from said summary, you can usually figure out if a story is for you. And if not, dude, back button. But don't make some poor writer (or artist, while we're at it) feel bad about something she's writing. Because ok, this one might be not to your taste. Who's to say the next one won't be?

Also, no writer starts out perfect. And I don't think there's a one of us who didn't do cringe-worthy Mary Sue. Hell, I'm still tempted to do it sometimes, although I mostly keep it in my head. Briere and Giroux do NOT want to have a threesome with me, no matter how much I wish it were so, and god knows none of us want to be reading it.

And you know what else (sorry, where did this soapbox come from)? It's a STORY. It doesn't have to be exactly perfect or exactly the way YOU'D write it. Again, if it's not to your taste, move on. Recently there was quite a bit of criticism of a Kane/Toews story where Jonny was a teacher and Pat was a stepdad coming in the school. People were UP IN ARMS because "that would never happen now!!!!" Which is true, but neither are the Hunger Games happening. It doesn't mean someone can't write about it. Suspension of disbelief is a thing, people, I swear.
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2013-11-13 08:19 am (UTC)(link)
And tags! I am ALL ABOUT tagging. Because freeform tags are a lot less "formal" seeming than a summary, so often people who can't summary get a lot more specific in the tags, and if my reaction to the tags is OH HALE NAW then it's pretty likely I won't like the fic, whereas there are things in summaries that sometimes correlate with things I enjoy or at least tolerate, and sometimes correlate with things that have me flailing for the ctrl+w.
libitina: Wei Yingluo from Story of Yanxi Palace in full fancy costume holding a gaiwan and sipping tea (Default)

[personal profile] libitina 2013-11-12 07:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Sing it!

There are so many contexts where I keep having the conversation about how the way to get more people to do the thing you want to have keep going and have enough momentum to sustain itself is NOT to create more barriers to people joining in and having fun with it.
petra: Harley Quinn hugging Poison Ivy blissfully (Harley & Ivy - Femslash yay!)

[personal profile] petra 2013-11-12 07:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for this.

When people write things that are clearly what they want to read, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling, even if I have no desire to read those things. Fandom is for making the stories each person wants most, and the farther afield from Generally Accepted Fiction someone's desire lands, the more I want to cheer them on for pleasing themselves.
renay: photo of the milky way from new zealand on a clear night (Default)

[personal profile] renay 2013-11-12 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
This was lovely. Thank you!
law_nerd: Our 1/2 Lab puppy stares intently off into space. (Default)

[personal profile] law_nerd 2013-11-12 07:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Random drive-by comment ... just to say, entirely agreed.

And, as an occasional teacher of writing, I'd love to see your pluperfect flow-chart.
sasha_feather: Retro-style poster of skier on pluto.   (aliens)

[personal profile] sasha_feather 2013-11-12 07:37 pm (UTC)(link)
\o/
paceus: Katchoo from the comic Strangers in Paradise (Default)

[personal profile] paceus 2013-11-12 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Hear, hear!

And I would also love to read your pluperfect rant. Seriously, I'm interested in what you'd have to say. Please post. :)
ahestele: (Default)

[personal profile] ahestele 2013-11-12 07:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Gracias for this in the name of new writers of a fandom that are scared to post.
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2013-11-13 02:16 pm (UTC)(link)
You should post! I guarantee there will be people out there who will enjoy your writing - and I promise you also that there are more experienced fandom writers out there who basically look for newbie writers that write things they like, and then who latch onto them and offer betareading and chat plotty things and all the fun writing things. (I used to do that, back when I had actual free time, and there were experienced writers who did it for me when I was a newbie.)
jenna_thorn: auburn haired woman wearing a tophat (fangirl)

cheerleading!

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-13 02:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh! Oh! post! Whatever you are worried about, we can find a safety net for you (that is, if you are scared of getting characters wrong, there are betas in your fandom. If you are worried about writing in a secondary language, like the person in the thread above, there are a whole lot of English teachers here. If you just need someone to hold your hand, I can do that! Because sometimes I just need someone to hold my hand, honestly. I can't help with fandom-specific stuff, because TFV and I haven't shared a fandom in a while, so you and I probably don't, either. I just like her as a person.)
analise010: (ABBIE MILLS)

[personal profile] analise010 2013-11-12 07:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I LOVED THIS! Honestly, I *like* bad fic. In a guilty pleasure kind of way? Yes. But sometimes it's just nice to take a break from all of the really emotionally draining great fic and sit down with something completely different.

And even if I didn't like it? SO WHAT! That story means/meant a lot to the author and we should respect that.
havocthecat: (batb pajamas & ice cream cat)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2013-11-13 02:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I love it when people don't just own their id but ride it like a pony.

Hah! Yes. It also generally makes for the kind of passionately joyful fic that overcomes its flaws, should it have any.
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2013-11-13 08:23 am (UTC)(link)
One of the most enjoyable fics I have ever read was one fangirl's "so what if my friends and I went to Hogwarts" epic. I think it was contemporary, so well after Harry's time. There was giggling, teenage girls being teenage, and in-jokes all over the place. But the writing itself was technically solid, and I left the fic feeling like "you know, I would have liked to know these girls when I was that age." I left feedback to that effect.
gabbysilang: (fractals on the surface of the sun)

[personal profile] gabbysilang 2013-11-12 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Signed into dw for the first time in a very long time simply to thank you for this. Right on.
jiele: Big, fancy "'Twas Brillig", with small "and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe;" in scarlet on pale grey. (LIT - 'Twas Brillig)

[personal profile] jiele 2013-11-12 08:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes. That.

Also +1 to the "Pluperfect flowchart? Yes, please." group.
laisserais: Jessica Lange is the baddest witch in town (baddest)

[personal profile] laisserais 2013-11-12 11:26 pm (UTC)(link)
May I also vote for the pluperfect flowchart? That would be awesome!
solarcat: (Bandom (MikeC) -- =D)

[personal profile] solarcat 2013-11-12 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
*cosigns this*
kinetikatrue: (Default)

[personal profile] kinetikatrue 2013-11-12 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
What she said!

Also: glad to be on your team, babe!
solarcat: (Crusoe (C/F) -- Forehead Touchy!!)

[personal profile] solarcat 2013-11-12 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
<3
solarcat: (Smallville -- I have superpowers)

[personal profile] solarcat 2013-11-13 02:46 am (UTC)(link)
Don't mention it. I think it was the least I could do. If I had a little more free time/energy, I'd offer to beta it myself, tbh. I just don't have the energy to sink into a Seguin fic, since I'm not a huge fan of him generally. But I figure if I can't offer direct help, I needed to at least /try/ to defend the girl. She's probably a young-ish teenager, based on the tells in the fic itself, and for a group that (generally) probably had to deal with bullying ourselves at that age, it sucks that people felt the need to come into her fic specifically to put her down. :(
pslasher: (Default)

[personal profile] pslasher 2013-11-19 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm happy to hear someone defended her. I have no idea who this person or story is, but I am tempted to ask just so I can go offer some love.
ceares: typewriter keys (love)

[personal profile] ceares 2013-11-12 08:18 pm (UTC)(link)
lovely. thank you.

I remember being fairly new to fandom, as in a couple of years in when Prospect-L popped up in the Sentinel fandom and really being appalled that some place that felt safe and welcoming and awesome had that aspect. I was in my 30s and basically too mediocre a writer to even make a blip, not so bad or good that anybody bothered but I'd been writing since I was eleven and most of it was as bad as expected. I can't imagine being young and eager and basically being bullied out of something I love doing, and I know there were people that stopped writing or at least stopped posting because of that group.

TBH one of the reasons I adore KB is because even when I back away going nope,nope,nope, I know someone out there is making grabby hands for it and that makes me smile.
arduinna: a tarot-card version of Linus from Peanuts, carrying a lamp as The Hermit (Default)

[personal profile] arduinna 2013-11-13 09:34 am (UTC)(link)
I think Prospect-L was a different kettle of fish, though. (Disclaimer: I was -- and technically still am, for that matter -- a mod of P-L.) It was more like a namespace version of an anon meme, where among other things people were free to talk about things they did and didn't like, and that was okay. It was definitely not about sending comments directly to authors, or bullying them in any way. I'm not saying some people didn't do that, but they were the same assholes who were doing it long before P-L started up and long after it waned into silence.

The whole point to P-L was that it wasn't about the authors; it was about the readers' reactions to the fanfic, and their desire to talk with each other about that as part of their overall fannish experience, just as we talked about canon with each other.

Sentinel fandom as it existed before P-L wasn't safe, welcoming, and awesome for everyone; it was silencing and repressive to a lot of people, flat-out telling them they were bad and wrong for enjoying fandom the way they did: wanting to be able to react to the things they read with other fans, to see what did and didn't work for other people and why.

P-L was explicitly created with the idea that readers are every bit as important a part of fandom as writers, and have every bit as much right to a voice to react to their shared fannish experience.

And it turns out there was a huge need for that; hundreds of people joined and posted thousands of messages just that first month, in this massive outpouring of relief and pent-up frustration at having been silenced for so long. Some of the very early posts did get a little sharp as a result of that frustration (although honestly, the only truly nasty posts were from people trolling the list trying to pick fights to prove how awful the list was). But it settled down really fast into just... discussion. Active, happy, cheerful discussion, including disagreement and different opinions, about fic, canon, fanon, cons, zines, vids, more canon, more fanon, more fic....

There were a lot of rumors circulating off P-L about how mean and nasty it was, but they weren't true. At best, they were based on distorted and exaggerated tales told about the first few days, when everyone was blowing off steam; at worst, they were made up out of whole cloth to paint the worst possible picture of the list and scare people about how awful and mean all those terrible P-L people were. There were a lot of people willing to believe the absolute worst of the list and every single person on it, and I never understood why.

Prospect-L definitely wasn't a list for everyone, any more than Senad was a list for everyone. But mostly it was just people having conversations about stuff they were passionate about, like everywhere else in fandom.

Fandom should have room for everyone, not just people who only like one form of discussion.
ceares: cookie all grown up (Default)

[personal profile] ceares 2013-11-13 03:13 pm (UTC)(link)
eh, maybe I'm just a big ole' wuss then because I've been to a few anon memes and find a lot of what's on them just as distasteful. I think it's a bit disingenuous to think that just because no one is sending comments directly to author Suzie Q's email that when she comes up and is ripped to shreds/flamed, what have you, it's not going to get back to them. It's like whispering and snickering about someone across the room, loud enough for anyone on your side to hear and saying 'well it's not like we said it to their face.'

I've seen avid, interesting discussions sure, but I've also seen Suzie Q and her fans brought up and gleefully eviscerated. That's not people having conversations about stuff they're passionate about, that's mean girling.(Not explicitly from Prospect L since I was never a member. I was a member of Senad and I remember people being hurt and angry)Frankly, for me, that discussion belongs in a completely private forum with people you trust implicitly, not on an open one. it was silencing and repressive to a lot of people, flat-out telling them they were bad and wrong for enjoying fandom the way they did: which seems to be a case of passing on the misfortune because calling out Suzie Q author is doing the same thing IMO.

Obviously it's a YMMV thing. Some people really enjoy that type of atmosphere. It's why things like Fashion Police and Go Fug Yourself exist. Everyone is free to enjoy fandom the way they please, it'd just be nice if that didn't mean actively(as opposed to passively/accidentally)infringing on someone else's enjoyment of it.
arduinna: a tarot-card version of Linus from Peanuts, carrying a lamp as The Hermit (Default)

[personal profile] arduinna 2013-11-14 08:22 am (UTC)(link)
I apologize for answering this so late. I've been at a total loss how to respond to it, because this:

Frankly, for me, that discussion belongs in a completely private forum with people you trust implicitly, not on an open one.

...is literally the silencing I was talking about: telling people that their form of engagement in fandom is something that needs to be hidden away, so no one else has to be exposed to it because some people don't like it.

It cuts people off from interacting with each other, because you have to know up front exactly who enjoys things the way you enjoy them; newbies, especially, have no way to find the people who could have been their friends otherwise. It automatically creates cliques, exclusivity, separation, isolation -- all because some people are uncomfortable at the thought that other people think/react/enjoy differently than they do.

Fandom has reached a place where people wouldn't dream of kink-shaming, even if they're triggered by that kink, because everyone has a right to enjoy what they enjoy without feeling shame. But we're still in a place where wanting to say "Actually, that story didn't work for me" or "I feel like this trope is starting to be overused" or "Okay, I've read at least six dozen examples of this trope done poorly - does anyone have an example of it being done *well*?" is so horrible that it should be kept hidden away?

My co-mod and I originally thought that maybe, *maybe* 15 people would join Prospect-L; instead, hundreds appeared almost overnight, many of them re-joining the fandom they'd been driven from by people telling them that they shouldn't speak openly about what they enjoyed, many others saying they'd thought they were alone in wanting those sorts of in-depth discussions. The fandom attitude of "you should only talk about those things behind closed doors with people you know and trust" had isolated and alienated those hundreds of fans, just to make things a little more comfortable for other fans.

After that big surge of "hey, fandom *is* big enough for both camps to co-exist!", it's really disheartening to see that people are still championing the idea of isolating fans who approach fandom from a different direction.

It's not even that I don't understand the impulse. There's lots of things in fandom that I find offputting, even reprehensible. My fannish experience would be much better if those things didn't exist, bluntly. But that's on me to deal with; I can say I don't like them, but I can't say no one else should do them, as publicly as they want to, just because I don't like them. My only real option is to avoid them, which I do to the best of my ability.

I get that for some people, hearing that someone didn't like your story, or that they thought it was weak in x or y way, can be really upsetting. And maybe even just knowing that a space existed where people were talking about stories/tropes/trends they did and didn't like was enough to give people the shudders, like me and those other fannish things out there. But they could easily avoid being on P-L, and there was no reason for them to hear what people were saying there about their own work, if anything; if a friend forwarded posts that made them unhappy, well, that "friend" was a jackass. Seriously.

Everyone is free to enjoy fandom the way they please, it'd just be nice if that didn't mean actively(as opposed to passively/accidentally)infringing on someone else's enjoyment of it.

I agree, but I think we have very different takes on this. To me, saying "people who enjoy X should stay in a closet with a few trusted confidantes, where the rest of fandom doesn't have to know they exist" is actively infringing on someone else's enjoyment. On the other hand, hanging out with like-minded people in a space clearly marked as being for all kinds of discussion is at worst passively/accidentally infringing on someone else, as they can certainly choose not to look at that space if they want.

The fact that some people look at a type of discussion and say "nope, nope, nope" doesn't mean that that discussion shouldn't be available to people who would make grabby hands if they knew it was there.
ceares: cookie all grown up (Default)

[personal profile] ceares 2013-11-14 12:17 pm (UTC)(link)
But we're still in a place where wanting to say "Actually, that story didn't work for me" or "I feel like this trope is starting to be overused" or "Okay, I've read at least six dozen examples of this trope done poorly - does anyone have an example of it being done *well*?" is so horrible that it should be kept hidden away?

Not at all. I happen to love meta and discussions like this as a matter of fact and I'm happy to see them and coms that support them. I can lose hours to them. I'm not talking about critiquing or even criticizing someone's writing in an analytical way, I'm talking about personal attacks. What I'm specifically talking about keeping to yourself and people that you know aren't running to tell tales are the kind of comments that come up on anon memes and obviously in other places calling out specific authors and either pointing and laughing or ripping and shredding. The first happens to 'badfic' writers more often and the 2nd I've seen usually with popular or so-called BNF writers. Unfortunately fandom is too small that something that occurs on a public forum is something that won't get passed along, either accidentally, out of genuine care or maliciously.

Again,for me writing a fic someone doesn't like is passive unless that fic is aimed specifically at the person who doesn't like it. Posting publicly and saying the writer should throw their laptop into a lake and jump in after it is active.

As you said, we have very different takes on it but, I said, I wasn't on Prospect-L so if I've called them out of turn, I apologize.


executrix: (Default)

Don't Slam the Teller, Slam the Tale

[personal profile] executrix 2013-11-14 01:59 pm (UTC)(link)
The converse of "don't trust the teller, trust the tale" is that it is perfectly possible to phrase critique in terms of "This story/part of the story didn't work for me" or "I was not persuaded by your resolution of such-and-such situation" or "I found Character X OOC because of what ze said in Episode 314" rather than "You are a stupid no-talent slob."

I agree that the atmosphere of fandom is such that some, perhaps a lot of people will read "Chapter 15 is too hurried" AS "you are a stupid no-talent slob" but that's a different problem.
ceares: cookie all grown up (Scotty-thinking)

Re: Don't Slam the Teller, Slam the Tale

[personal profile] ceares 2013-11-14 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
*nods*

and not gonna lie, if I'm having a really bad day, "Chapter 15 is too hurried" AS "you are a stupid no-talent slob" might be my knee jerk reaction till I take a deep breath but it would still be an issue I had with me, not with the person that made the comment.
executrix: (art crawl)

Re: Don't Slam the Teller, Slam the Tale

[personal profile] executrix 2013-11-14 04:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't comment a lot, partly because I don't *get* comments, so I often say "Fine! We'll just have a passive audience then, shall we?" but also because I don't want to take out my bad day on somebody's mediocre fic.
ceares: cookie all grown up (Default)

Re: Don't Slam the Teller, Slam the Tale

[personal profile] ceares 2013-11-14 08:09 pm (UTC)(link)
hmm, there are days when I nitpick every little thing about a fic until I finally say, 'okay, back away from the fic'. I put it down, go reread a comfort fic and come back another day.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2013-11-12 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I swear to god, half the time people are just looking for an excuse to be assholes. So they start acting like art they think is bad - or even genuinely is bad - is some kind of moral crime, because that excuses their bad behaviour.

Which is to say, this.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2013-11-13 03:03 am (UTC)(link)
100% with you on that.
treewishes: All season tree (Default)

[personal profile] treewishes 2013-11-12 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, yes, YES. I think I wrote something like this about 10 years ago, not as well stated, but YES. Really, quit telling people not to write. You don't have to read it!
randomling: Scorpius (Farscape) (scorpius)

[personal profile] randomling 2013-11-12 09:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I am currently drafting a terrible novel so this is actually massively reassuring. Thank you for writing it. ♥
anatsuno: (w00!)

[personal profile] anatsuno 2013-11-12 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
YES! (and the crowd cheers!)

kephiso: A glass mural of a FlightRising dragon (Default)

[personal profile] kephiso 2013-11-12 09:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, this was pretty amazing!

And I find myself agreeing a stunning lot. Looking back on what I was writing when I started (I was 11 and in Twilight fandom), I cringe in embarrassment. I'm still closer to 16 than I am to 17, but I feel like I've matured a lot and so has my writing. And without the positive feedback I got in the German Harry Potter fandom, I don't think I'd be here today. And that'd be a shame, because I really enjoy writing and publishing it.

Thanks for posting this and making me see how hypocritical my dislike of Mary Sues is (and Gary Stus, for that matter). Because we all started that way, and we weren't discouraged. So, yeah, awesome read!
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2013-11-13 03:02 am (UTC)(link)
This.

But I mean, on the flip-side, it's also going to be a massive mountain-climb for someone to make me like, say, a McKay/Sheppard fic (it's not QUITE a sheer wall because of a very specific Valdemar AU - long story - but it's a pretty tough mountain) and that doesn't mean other people shouldn't write it.
starwatcher: Western windmill, clouds in background, trees around base. (Default)

[personal profile] starwatcher 2013-11-13 06:02 am (UTC)(link)
.
Hey, we all have, right? (written Mary Sue)

Only once, and that was for a challenge. <g>

(And I thought I had it saved and can't find it. *sniffle*)

ETA: Found it! Very short, but good for a chuckle, if you're in the mood.

But I was 50 when I started writing fanfic, had 44-ish years of voracious reading under my belt and 3 years of fandom; I had absorbed the warnings about Mary Sues and self-inserts and knew what pitfalls to avoid.

That said, I'm with you all the way. I've written my own post about "as long as writing is happening it's all good, and no one's forcing you to eat a dish you don't like." (My imagery was a buffet table, pot-luck style.)

And I've waded in to a stranger's LJ to defend her against a pack of rabid hyenas, because one of the instigators was (still is) a member of my main fandom, and I couldn't allow my silence to signify acceptance of the situation. I have never understood the drive some people have to tear down others for the sin of not writing to their (the tear-downers) taste. Still, I'm amazed that they'd actually show their dirty underwear like that in an archive; the mind boggles.

And I'm another reader who looks forward to your pluperfect flowchart. Go, you!
.
Edited (successful search) 2013-11-13 06:18 (UTC)
jenna_thorn: Superman hugging Batman (superhugs)

I love fandom and I love you.

[personal profile] jenna_thorn 2013-11-13 02:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Other people may love Mary Sues without restriction!

Maybe not without restriction, but I'll raise my hand and say, send 'em all to me. Self inserts are my particular catnip, in fact, not least because they are a window to the writer.

What a fabulous group of people we have here, that a Venn diagram of our kinks and id fic choices looks like an OpArt daisy, with the only shared space being a wee multisided grammar textbook in the very center. 8-) I love fandom so much.

cadenzamuse: Cross-legged girl literally drawing the world around her into being (Default)

[personal profile] cadenzamuse 2013-11-12 09:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I am with you! I am even going to link to [personal profile] staranise's bad art manifesto/meta: http://staranise.dreamwidth.org/415511.html

Because the artist DOES NOT OWE ME ANYTHING.

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