thefourthvine: Two people fucking, rearview: sex is the universal fandom. (Default)
Keep Hoping Machine Running ([personal profile] thefourthvine) wrote2009-11-23 07:58 pm

[Poll] Some plot developments require SPECIAL DISCUSSION.

True confessions time: I love hard SF. My ideal, in this arena, is the kind of story where each page contains either an equation or a paragraph of dense scientific explanation (usually in stilted dialog, spoken by the story's Resident Explanatory Genius).

So I was pleased to get a copy of Stephen Baxter's Manifold: Time for free. It contains almost as much sciency verbiage as I want from my SF, and it's fun and entertaining. There are even female characters who get a lot of screen time - it may even be 50:50 male:female, although the book hasn't passed the Bechdel test anywhere yet. (I'm not quite finished.)

Over the years, I've become very used to the problems of hard SF. (Like, I am totally willing to celebrate Manifold: Time's amazing quantity of girl characters: two! Of course, neither of them understands the science at all, but I know better than to ask for miracles.) One of the big ones is that a lot of the people who write it - well, they understand the science. They understand the math. Actual people are harder.

Like, there's a scene in the book where the Resident Explanatory Genius goes on television to tell the world about the Carter catastrophe (in a highly condensed version, this is a statistical argument that predicts the probability of the end of the human race in the relatively near future), which the book uses in a modified form that says we, as a species, probably only have about 200 years left. The REG does not go for the simplified, sound-bite version I just gave you; he goes on for a while, explaining Why the Human Race Is (Probably) Doomed, in his usual sciency verbiage style. And the world goes into a panic and depression.

I read that and realized Baxter has no clue what people are actually like, or he'd know that the normal human response to a speech like that, on television, is not panic and depression; it's changing the channel. Very few people would listen long enough, or pay enough attention, to understand what the REG is saying. And even those who did wouldn't buy it. Statistics? That are predicated on the idea that there is nothing special about us? No one is going to believe it or even give a shit, frankly, except people who already know what the Carter catastrophe is.

But, fine, hard SF writers are allowed to write about slightly AU versions of our reality. I'm comfortable with that.

I was a little more impressed (horrified, whatever) with a very special piece of characterization. The main character is named Malenfant (yes, really), and late in the book (spoilers!), it is revealed that - wait. Let's do this as a poll.

Say that you discover that you have a treatable but not curable disease - you'll live a normal life, but you'll have to take medication regularly. This means you can't be an astronaut and will have to fall back on your plan B, which is being a maverick billionaire industrialist. (It's always good to have a safety career!)

Also, you are married. Your wife, Emma, doesn't want children, but nonetheless, this disease means you won't be able to have any.

You decide that the obvious way to handle this is not to tell her, and then have an affair, so that you can divorce Emma, so that you don't ruin her life, because you love her SO MUCH and this treatable illness makes you unworthy. Of course, she is intimately involved in your corporation, and indeed keeps it running, so you will still see her every day and she will still be closely involved in your life; you have explicitly told her that, sure, you're getting divorced, but you don't want her to quit. Decades go past with her wondering what the fuck happened and you maintaining your noble silence.

[Poll #1489604]
arboretum: (Default)

[personal profile] arboretum 2009-11-24 04:24 am (UTC)(link)
I can't answer this poll because I am still dumbstruck by the staggering genius that is Malenfant's name.

if hypothetically I were not dumbstruck, though, I would check every box except the first one, and then I would feel somehow incomplete having not checked the first one, and then I would fail to complete the poll yet again

also please continue to talk about books always, I don't care what kind of books XD

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:17 am (UTC)(link)
I really love his name, actually. It's like a giant blinking sign: "YES, READERS, I AM AWARE I HAVE CREATED A DOUCHEBAG."

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[identity profile] elaran.livejournal.com - 2009-11-24 15:24 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] kindkit.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 04:26 am (UTC)(link)
My absolute least favorite plot device IN THE WORLD is "I must leave you for your own good!" It always makes me want to hit the character over the head with a giant clue bat.
wealhtheow: sepia close-up of Medusa (Default)

[personal profile] wealhtheow (from livejournal.com) 2009-11-24 04:29 am (UTC)(link)
And let's not forget the glory of "you wouldn't understand, so I must keep this secret from you and rapidly poison our relationship with lies. For your own good!" Oh how I love that one.

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[personal profile] azurelunatic - 2009-11-25 17:40 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] bleedtoblue.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 04:35 am (UTC)(link)
Your posts always brighten my day. But we need more Earthling!

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:22 am (UTC)(link)
If I did reviews of books that involved the earthling, they would look like this:

Goodnight Gorilla is very colorful! And then there are pages that are mostly black, with no color ANYWHERE, which require a lot of examination and careful comparison to the pages before and after. Earthling rating: four bite marks!"

(I actually did briefly consider setting up a toy review blog called Earthling Toys, but sanity prevailed.)

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[personal profile] stasia - 2009-11-24 08:27 (UTC) - Expand

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[identity profile] vito-excalibur.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 04:42 am (UTC)(link)
I want to hear about both kinds of books! I just picked "like" because any fool can be entertaining about a book they hated, but you are a lovely fun blogger and I think are up to the challenge of being entertaining about a book you liked.

P.S. This was reminding me so much of _Spin_. Also with the multi-decade stupid-ass secret. Why, sf writers? Why?

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:25 am (UTC)(link)
I'm actually a lot more comfortable talking about books I like. (You may not realize it from this review, for example, but I am enjoying Manifold: Time.) I used to enjoy talking about books I didn't like, and then I got some email that revealed that the AUTHORS WERE READING MY REVIEWS, and that was the end of book reviewing for me.

Why, sf writers? Why?

Because they really aren't very good at characterization. (The ones that are kick ass, but they are rare indeed.) Some of them, you can actually watch getting better over the course of their books - Greg Egan (who I love, and who totally fulfills my need for sciency verbiage, in a really awesome way), in his early stories, had characters who were strangely akin to cardboard cutouts. In his later books, some of his characters actually sort of resemble people!

[identity profile] imkalena.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 04:43 am (UTC)(link)
A: If this is the kind of book you Actually Like, then no wonder fanfic turns out to be a nice break for you. It seems to be better reading.

B: I know why Emma keeps working for Malenfant for all those decades -- it's no mystery. Because she Really Loves Him. No woman who Really Loves a man would ever leave him, especially not for some piddly thing like an affair which leads to him divorcing her.

C. Malenfant, omg.

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:32 am (UTC)(link)
A: It's probably part of the reason why I love fan fiction - they're two sides of the same coin, at least for me. They're both really entertaining and fun to read, but one of them is all about the big picture, with great pacing and intricate plotting and many nifty concepts to toy with, but usually crappy characterization, and one is all about fabulous characterization and interaction, with (usually) less focus on the big picture.

B: She actually wonders that question - why do I keep working for him? - several times, which at least shows that Baxter knew it was a weird thing to do. But, yeah, basically she keeps working for him because the power of the plot compels her.

C: And, see, I totally like the name! Because it's a giant sign saying, "HEY, I AM WRITING A DOUCHEBAG AND I KNOW IT." This is a huge step above most SF, where they actually think the douchebag hero is a great guy who everyone should love.
ariadne83: cropped from official schematics (scrunchy-face john)

[personal profile] ariadne83 2009-11-24 04:46 am (UTC)(link)
So, he's sterile because of genetic stupidity? (Seriously, Malenfant? WTF?)

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:35 am (UTC)(link)
It's never really explained, but - I guess the drugs he needs to take to keep him healthy make him sterile? Or something? I don't know why it's even an issue, since it says early in the book that Emma and Malenfant talked about it and agreed that they did not want children. So it seems like he could have just said, "Hey, honey, bad news is that I can't be an astronaut. Good news is that you can go off the pill!"
minkhollow: view from below a copper birch at Mount Holyoke (another postcard)

[personal profile] minkhollow 2009-11-24 04:47 am (UTC)(link)
I also want to hear about books you like, but that one was not a ticky.

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:37 am (UTC)(link)
I admit it: I am anti-ticky. It's not my fault! My mother is an experimental psychologist, and I learned early about the virtues of forced choices!
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[identity profile] vickita.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 04:54 am (UTC)(link)
I must tell you, my reaction to Teh Big Secret was, "Wha-HUH?"

Which, in all honesty, is my reaction to many things associated with those people with the Y chromosomes. I came up with a new theory about them this morning, but I will spare you. Just... "Wha-HUH?"

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:37 am (UTC)(link)
I'm sure it made sense to Malenfant (and to Baxter), in that special way where it doesn't have to make any actual sense at all!

And I would like to hear your new theory, actually. I am rearing a person with a Y chromosome, after all!
ext_2160: SGA John & Rodney (Default)

[identity profile] winter-elf.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 04:54 am (UTC)(link)
I'd love to hear on books both good and bad. Your reviews are fun to read.

BTW - where does BB post her romance reviews?

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2009-11-25 06:19 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you! Maybe I will do an occasional feature. (Next one will surely be entitled "For the love of god, people, why haven't you already read The True Meaning of Smekday?")

She posts them on goodreads, but I think she's fallen behind. I will poke her!

[identity profile] raucousraven.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 04:55 am (UTC)(link)
You know, I almost went with raving douchebag. It was a close vote! Also, I can handle crazy characterisation up to a point, but past that point it's a fast channel-change of my own; either I put down the book or I walk away feeling betrayed by my youth. I hate both those options, and hence end up reading mainly space operas which handily pass the Bechdel test, huzzah.

[identity profile] raucousraven.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 04:57 am (UTC)(link)
Also. Malenfant. In this life he'd have been teased with pachyderm-pseudonyms until the douche all got whaled out of him. Or possibly elephanted, you know.

[identity profile] greenygal.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:01 am (UTC)(link)
After sputtering incoherently at the above for a bit, I hunted up a free download of the book and was rather cheered to find out that Emma's response on finding out The Big Secret was "Jesus Christ, you incredible control freak, what right did you think you had to do this to me? You thought this was the way to not wreck my life? Get the hell out of here." I suspect the author still has a lot more sympathy for the protagonist than I do (it, uh, would not be hard), but at least he gets that this is in fact messed-up behavior.
zillah975: (Default)

[personal profile] zillah975 2009-11-24 05:04 am (UTC)(link)
I would like to hear about books you like and books you have issues with. I chose the first ticky because I'm trying to be more positive. :)

[identity profile] tangleofthorns.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:10 am (UTC)(link)
Ditto, right down to the reasoning.

[identity profile] impactbomb.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:13 am (UTC)(link)
I'll point out, for Stephen Baxter's case regarding Science Exposition!, that he knows exactly how implausible that kind of thing is because he included a scene in VOYAGE, his book about a NASA Mars expedition in a universe where Kennedy didn't die (no, it works), where the REG goes in front of an audience and does exactly this and gets stared off the stage because he sounds like a grouchy pedant even though he's right because ... he's a grouchy pedant and that's boring and real people don't react well to pedantic lectures about stuff they don't understand. (VOYAGE may be my favorite Baxter book of all time, if you can get it; it's got a kickass female lead who's wonderfully prickly and also an astronaut.)

I think he just does it in his other books because he likes writing sciencey talk and if you can't get your kicks in writing SF, where can you get them?

I ... have no words to that plot, other than that I suspect somewhere Bruce Wayne is taking notes very intently.

[identity profile] livrelibre.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:14 am (UTC)(link)
Both kinds of books! And WTF?
vass: Jon Stewart reading a dictionary (books)

[personal profile] vass 2009-11-24 05:15 am (UTC)(link)
Yes! I want to hear about books that you want to talk about, whether that's books you like or books you have issues with.
stasia: (Default)

[personal profile] stasia 2009-11-24 05:21 am (UTC)(link)
... I have a confession.

I clicked on all of the tickyboxes at the beginning. *blush*

And my honest answer to the second half is:

Yes! I want to hear more about books from you.

*grin*

Stasia

[identity profile] imkalena.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:23 am (UTC)(link)
I've heard of overidentification, but at least fanfic writers don't get to name their protagonists Bad Boy.
minim_calibre: (Default)

[personal profile] minim_calibre 2009-11-24 05:32 am (UTC)(link)
Malenfant is too stupid to qualify for Manpain. HE HAS FAILED THE MANPAIN EXAM, AND MUST BE TERMINATED.
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (bookdragon)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-11-24 05:35 am (UTC)(link)
I am in favour of posts about any sort of books you wish to write about, up to and including ones you haven't read and/or feel ambivalent about. On the whole, if you wish to write it I am sure it will be worth reading. Then again, I remorselessly subject my flist to squeeful posts about statistics books so my judgement might not be trustworthy :)

I too am saddened by the very small intersection between awesome female characterisation and hard science in sf, despite the many awesome women in the real world hard sciences.
luminosity: (MISC-luminosity lightbulb)

[personal profile] luminosity 2009-11-24 05:42 am (UTC)(link)
For 20 yeare, I lived and breathed Larry Niven, Bruce Sterling and Joe Haldeman. I still breathe them. And Philip Jose Farmer and Spider Robinson and everyone who wasn't writing sword & sorcery in the 24th century. SPEAK ON!!

[identity profile] annakovsky.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 05:44 am (UTC)(link)
Haha, oh my GOD. That is... epic? Is epic the word? Oh my God.

[identity profile] miaruma.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 06:00 am (UTC)(link)
Heee, oh god. Malenfant ... I am kind of amazed already. :DDDD

But sadly enough, Malenfant's (... sorry, I'm giggling... again :) 'reasoning' isn't even the worst I've heard, or the douchiest. It's almost run-of-the-mill, oh hard SF(oh ROMANCE NOVELS) your love affair with semi-functioning douchebags is both repulsive and responsible for my functioning alcoholism (making up drinking games for books is a lot more fun than it sounds, really :D, and a bottle of cheap red wine makes EVERYTHING bearable).

[identity profile] dormouse-in-tea.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 06:00 am (UTC)(link)
I eventually had to go with more books you have issues with, because the powers of mockery are strong in this one! :D

But really, you talking about books = good.

Also Earthling! Hope he's doing well.
ext_2248: (math!)

[identity profile] macey-muse.livejournal.com 2009-11-24 06:03 am (UTC)(link)
ahahahahahahahahahahah WHAT


he called a character 'Bad Child'?


no, really. really. you're having me on, right?



*cracks up some more*
eledhwenlin: (Default)

[personal profile] eledhwenlin 2009-11-24 07:03 am (UTC)(link)
I choose like five checkboxes. Because, really. I love SF, but sometimes I wonder ...

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