[Poll] The Science of Slashiness

[thefourthvine]

Recently, cimness posted a graph of genius, comparing level of canon gay and quality of canon writing across several fandoms.

I, of course, immediately looked at it and thought: this calls for science. Because clearly what we need are definitive numbers for each of these values for many, many fandoms, so that they can be plotted on graphs. This will make me HAPPY. Possibly it will also make you happy - or perhaps you are just interested in increasing overall happiness in the universe! - in which case I direct you behind the cut.

ETA: lolitakun has provided us with some preliminary scientific results here. Go and behold!



A quick note on the selection of the fandoms: I picked ones I thought a lot of people would have opinions on. If I left something critical out, feel free to tell me in the comments.

A quick note on voting: When I say "slashy," I include femslash. Buffy/Faith, Gabrielle/Xena - these are pairings worth considering! Also, if you haven't seen an episode of the show, please don't vote on canon writing quality. (Ideally, you would have seen three! Or even more!) But if you think you can make a fair estimate of slashiness based on vids or YouTube pieces or transcripts, by all means, vote on that.

ETA: For quality, 1 = worse than anything you could find on fanfiction.net, even if you were funded by a grant solely for the purpose of finding the worst writing the world has ever known. 10 = genius unparalleled. For slashiness, 1 = straighter than a ruler. 10 = they could suck cocks or finger each other right there on the screen and it would only reduce the overall slashiness. Thanks for pointing out the ambiguity, lolaraincoat!

And now it's time for...SCIENCE.

[Poll #1352713]

Comments

[margueritem.livejournal.com]

My head exploded when I thought of DoctorWho/Torchwood : first, is it really fair to put them together since one is obviously more sexual than the other? (at the same time is slash about the sexual? one would argue no) And when talking of slash, does sexual intent count? As in, is it still slash if it's canon? *facepalm* *goes vote*

[margueritem.livejournal.com]

omg *head explodes some more* should I take slashy as in "lots of people slash the show" or as "I can see the slash"? *headdesk*

[hannahrorlove.livejournal.com]

DC Universe gets a few bumps in points for writing when I took various one-shots and specials (Superman: Peace on Earth) into account, but for the most part, the level of writing in the comics isn't as high as it could be. I blame the editors losing their grip on people like Judd Winick.

For "Jossverse," I voted for Firefly, having never seen Buffy or Angel, but having gathered enough about those from periphery observation that people seem to have read more into the text than is there. This relates to an issue I have with fandom in general, which is that emotional closeness doesn't always translate into sexual attraction.

Also, Tolkien lost several points for Tom Bombadil, something I'm glad Peter Jackson knew to forget about.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I blame the editors losing their grip on people like Judd Winick.

Among other things. *nobly does not get into it*

This relates to an issue I have with fandom in general, which is that emotional closeness doesn't always translate into sexual attraction.

Hmmm. But the thing is, we're not talking about gayness, which can be pretty empirically determined (How many same sex kisses are there? How much same sex sex? Etc.), but slashiness, which is much more of a you-know-it-when-you-see-it thing. And a huge component of slashiness is emotional involvement, emotional closeness. When we (by which I mean I, of course) say something is slashy, that's a large part of what we're talking about, and when we write slash, we're often furthering that emotional involvement, going for the big emotional payoff - even for people like me, who are definitely of the extremely cold and prickly school of writing and reading.

So I would say that in the real world, emotional closeness doesn't always, or even often, translate into sexual attraction. But in fannish writing and fannish interpretation of the text, emotional closeness usually does translate into slashiness.

But that is entirely my opinion, of course, and this poll is asking about what you see. And clearly you have a different definition of slashiness, which is what makes fandom (and this poll) interesting.

Also, Tolkien lost several points for Tom Bombadil, something I'm glad Peter Jackson knew to forget about.

Oh dear god Tom Bombadil. You can tell I am not a real Tolkien fanatic, because I tend to break out in hives if I think about him too closely.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

I refused to answer the writing quality question in re:DCU, on account of the fact that it ranges from -17 billion (All-Star Batman & Robin) through really pretty good (the most recent Batgirl run, YJ) to great (the occasional one-off issue: I really like the ish after Bruce Wayne: Fugitive where we see BW just going thru his daily life.)

Also, some of my answers for some shows were altered by my awareness of greater fandom - for example, SG-1 is not slashy at all to me, but obviously to some people it is.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I refused to answer the writing quality question in re:DCU, on account of the fact that it ranges from -17 billion (All-Star Batman & Robin) through really pretty good (the most recent Batgirl run, YJ) to great (the occasional one-off issue: I really like the ish after Bruce Wayne: Fugitive where we see BW just going thru his daily life.)

Yeah, the problem with rating the DCU on writing quality is that it's like trying to rate fanfiction.net on writing quality. Or, okay, it's like trying to rate sga_flashfic, to use a less pejorative metaphor. It varies! I kind of took my best shot at it, but I totally think skipping the question is a valid way to go.

Also, some of my answers for some shows were altered by my awareness of greater fandom - for example, SG-1 is not slashy at all to me, but obviously to some people it is.

Really, I'm just asking for what you see. I mean, no need to take fandom into account. If you don't see the SG1 slash, you don't see it!

[giandujakiss.livejournal.com]

How is Starsky & Hutch, the father of hurt/comfort, the father of gay subtext, the show starring characters referred to as "prime time french kissing homos" at the time the show aired in the 70s, not on this list??

*points at icon*

[suchthefangirl.livejournal.com]

I second you on this!!

[xjestx.livejournal.com]

That list needs Man from U.N.C.L.E. - that show practically invented slash.

[shayheyred.livejournal.com]

"You still have me, Napoleon."
~
"You have something that belongs to me."

[miss-porcupine.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how to vote on DC -- on either question. For quality, there's just too much variation. For every Mark Waid run on JLA, there's Jon Lewis with the underground tag-team alien Amish twin wrestlers in Robin. Bill Willingham singlehandedly made Schroedinger's cat explode by being simultaneously brilliant in Fables and making a wretched hash of the DCU.

For slashiness, do I focus on the hilariously unintentional stuff from Way Back When (oh, say, Dick and Roy in the Action comics series that introduced Lian) or the intentionally slashy stuff written by gone-legit slasher Devin Grayson (the 'Transference' arc of GK) or do I acknowledge that most of the time it's played straight (pun intended, except where Piper or Rene Montoya or GLBT-Character-Du-Jour is concerned)?

eta: I only saw one episode of it, but considering that there aren't that many, I nominate Crusoe for eligibility in this matter. You know it's bad when even I see slash...

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

For quality, there's just too much variation.

Very, very true. As I was saying to labellementeuse, it's like trying to rate sga_flashfic on writing quality (or slashiness). It, you know. Varies. A lot. Possibly I shouldn't have included it in the poll, because it really isn't consistent enough to rate.

I only saw one episode of it, but considering that there aren't that many, I nominate Crusoe for eligibility in this matter.

Oh, god. I have never seen the canon - well, naturally - but I watched one vid and I was like, GIVE ME THE SLASH. Except I haven't really found any. But, yes: very, very, very slashy.

[rheanna27.livejournal.com]

I started thinking about graphs -- in Excel! Pie charts! OMG PIVOT TABLES! -- and then I got too excited and had to go and lie down for a bit. I am WHOLLY IN FAVOUR of this very scientific exercise.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I am totally planning Excel-related shenanigans with these numbers. How could I not? And yes, it IS very exciting. Join me in my science squee! Send me some graphs! And pie charts! I had not planned on them, but I see now that I was limited and wrong in my thinking!

*bounces in numerical glee*

[afrikate.livejournal.com]

I think your science is genius, but I need to comment at the moment because Supernatural is currently an average of 6.66 slashy, and that's got to mean something, right?

[dzurlady.livejournal.com]

Hee, awesome. :)

[lolaraincoat.livejournal.com]

I'm having a hard day in the parenting mines, so please forgive me for asking such a dumb question, but 1=better writing and 10=worse writing? or is it the other way around?

[carta.livejournal.com]

ack, I hope it's the other way around. I did 1=BAD BAD BAD and 10=AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME.

[jenna-thorn.livejournal.com]

heh, i was coming to comment about how the DCU writing varies so wildly when I realized that I was following a trend, so I'll simply state here that I am tickled at how the writing quality graphs fall into (at this point in time) sort of a bell, with some variation on each, but for some of the fandoms (Xena/Hercules, I'm looking at you) no one puts the slash rating below seven.

And though I didn't think I had my own set of slash goggles, I'm boggling at some of the answers. Apparently, I'm enthusiastic.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I probably should not have included DCU. Ah, well. Live and learn!

And, yeah, I've been very amused by some of the results, here. Certain fandoms are apparently Just That Slashy. *snickers gleefully*

And though I didn't think I had my own set of slash goggles, I'm boggling at some of the answers. Apparently, I'm enthusiastic.

Really? I wouldn't have put you in the slash everywhere category, but I did think you had your set of slash-colored goggles. More living! More learning!

[brownbetty]

OMG, TFV, ILU! I can only convey my love in caps and acronyms!

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Later I am going to do dirty, dirty things with spreadsheets and charts! I am SO HAPPY, Betty!

[melannen.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I was hoping somebody with a paid account would do a poll of this! After I saw cimness's graph yesterday I had to go and make one of my own (http://melannen.katycat.net/slashgraph.png). (Mine takes in "variability" as a color variable. Because. Variability is an *important factor* slashiness! House has a constant layer of slashy; Highlander is usually only a little bit slashy, but then suddenly it will be OMG THEY'RE PRACTICALLY MAKING OUT ON SCREEN.)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I looked at that graph and thought, "There needs to be a poll. And I have that power!" It cried out for SCIENCE!

And OMG that graph. *staaaaares* Although I'm prepared to argue you with you on the position of Scrubs; I haven't actually seen much canon for anything, but I've seen a fair amount of that, and I think it should be several notches higher on the slashiness scale. *lobbies*

And you're right; ideally, this should be three dimensions, which would solve a lot of the DCU problems. Hmmmm.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

I think Dr Who and Torchwood need to be separate. You're getting a huge skew in the results because of the canonical gay romantic relationship in TW. DW isn't that slashy with or without being sexualised!

You know, maybe you couldn't write a paper about it or whatever, but I think this... Science is looking pretty reliable. Already with your pretty small sample, most of the questions seem to be showing a clear trend, with several presenting a pretty obvious bell-curve!

We HAVE to make rainbow graphs for this!

But I do think you should make an addendum with more shows. Starsky & Hutch really needs a slot! There are several older fandoms I can think of like Man from UNCLE and The Professionals which, however, might be harder to poll for due to most modern slashfen not being familiar with them.

[dancinguniverse.livejournal.com]

I think Dr Who and Torchwood need to be separate. You're getting a huge skew in the results because of the canonical gay romantic relationship in TW. DW isn't that slashy with or without being sexualised!

I agree with this, and I also think the writing is far better on DW than TW, so my votes would have been different for both shows. That was a really hard one for me to vote on.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

Both DCU and DrWho have too much canon to be other than around "5" in quality overall. But maybe you're not going for the whole run in either case?

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Well, with DW, I was really only considering New Who. But stick around! There will be an addendum to this poll, once I've determined all the fandoms I left out!

[quillori.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanks for doing this. I'm looking forward to seeing how the votes come out.

I found the Jossverse one hard to answer: the scores for both slashiness and writing quality are pushed up by Buffy, which has canon lesbians and some very good writing, whereas I found, say, parts of Angel unwatchably bad. I gave up on answering the Dr Who/Torchwood one because averaging my scores for each gave results misleading for both.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm about to do an additional poll where I split out DW and TW, since everyone seems to have had that problem.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the votes come out.

I'm hoping there will be shiny graphs! (I myself will producing less shiny graphs.)

[minotaurs.livejournal.com]

Hmm, how interesting. I'm amused that (aside from a couple of obvious exceptions like Sentinal and Smallville) most people disagree with me on the relative Slashiness:Quality ratio. I rated almost all these shows considerable higher in Slashiness than Quality, but it appears most everyone else gave above-the-midpoint scores for both.

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, when 1 is "as bad as the worst of ff.net", above the midpoint is not exactly a high bar for quality. :)

[vsee.livejournal.com]

I love graphs, but feel baffled by the questions. Also quality=enjoyableness often get confused in people's heads, which is why I think people tend to rate writing quality high, even for shows with some pretty serious writing problems.

I also agree that Torchwood and Doctor Who are really impossible to rate together. Both the sexuality and the style of writing are markedly different.

Can't wait to see what everyone else says, though.

*rubs hands greedily and grabs a fork for the hoped for pie charts*

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

There will be an additional poll that breaks out DW and TW! So that should help. And, yeah, some of these are very tough calls. I ask the hard questions, I do.

[ealgylden.livejournal.com]

I will never understand the general disdain for the writing on Sentinel. At worst it's mediocre, no worse than SGA or Smallville, and far less aggressively insulting than, say, the third season of SPN. But it's a truism that it's terrible, and who am I to fight a truism.

[malnpudl.livejournal.com]

To be fair, there's something seriously wrong with a show where a cop loses his service weapon almost every time he gets into a fight. And, you know, keeps his job. WTF, show?

[lolitakun.livejournal.com]

I made a graph *headdesk*

[lolitakun.livejournal.com]

If anyone would like to see it, it's here (http://lolitakun.livejournal.com/6064.html)

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Okay, Doctor Who/Torchwood gets a 10 for slashy for the mere fact that Captain Jack Harkness is in them and could be slashy with a tree.

But I think it is unfair to lump them together in terms of writing quality because in general Torchwood isn't as well written as Doctor Who. (It's not actually much more slashy than Doctor Who, it just has more canon gay kissage.)

I skipped the ones I've never seen/read.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Yeah, totally. I have seen the error of my ways in regards to lumping together the Seussiverse. Soon there will be a poll up with additional fandoms, and I'll break out TW and DW separately there.

[travels-in-time.livejournal.com]

"Quality of writing" combined for Doctor Who/Torchwood is Not Fair. One is SO MUCH BETTER than the other. "Slashiness" also doesn't really compare, but it's not the same level of disconnect.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I have seen the error of my ways! There's an additional poll (http://thefourthvine.livejournal.com/99145.html) with more fandoms, including Torchwood and Doctor Who separated. Now we can achieve true science in regards to time-travel-related television shows! *pleased*

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Yay for science!! \0/

(I'm kind of loving the ones that are "OMG!SLASHY!!" and "OMG!BAD!!" at the same time. XDDD )

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I join you in giving science Paul Gross arms! \o/

(And isn't that basically fandom? We take the canons with great characters and awesome emotional content but, um, somewhat inferior writing, and we make it better. *loves fandom to pieces*)

[macey-muse.livejournal.com]

lol I feel I should campaign for the addition of Hikaru no Go to this poll; I'm sure at least, like, three people would vote on it. right? ^.^' (did you catch stirring_still's essay on 'coded references to same-sex attraction in Hikaru no Go (http://stirring-still.livejournal.com/4687.html)' aka Why Their Love Is Canon, No Really ~? because in hikago, it /is/)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, I hadn't seen that. Thank you for pointing me to it!

And I have added HnG to the second poll (http://thefourthvine.livejournal.com/99145.html"). Go! Vote! It'll just be you and me, basically. *g*

[animeartistjo.livejournal.com]

Some of the fandoms are so large that the amount of bad and good even out: HP, SV, SGA, and Jossverse mostly.

I think HP has a lot more poor writers do to the proliferation of teens, pre-teens, people who did not pass English with a B or better who write in it. I'd say 90% of HP fic on fanfiction.net is pure and utter crap. If the people who vote only read LJ fic, then that would influence the votes, I'm sure.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Oh, but I'm not talking about the quality of the fan fiction, but rather the source itself. (Because, yeah, pretty much all these fandoms would get a 4 or a 5; there's so much variety it would be impossible to rate the quality of the fannish writing.)

[tevere.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised that people are giving HP canon such a low slash factor! REMUS AND SIRIUS, PEOPLE! Werewolf = gay? (Forced to hide identity; once discovered, driven out of mainstream society.) They LIVE together for a period? They have a long and troubled history of secrets and lies and betrayal and hot exploratory adolescent sex, and then hell of a lot of sadder complicated adult sex? (Okay, perhaps those last two are my interpolation, but the very fact I CAN interpolate means there's seeds in the canon!)

Like many previous commenters, my brain went a little ka-boom on the DW/Torchwood combined question. Bizarrely, I consider DW more slashy than Torchwood. Because DW is full of potential and tasty subtext (Jack's flirting with 9 is just wonderful, and with 10 you get Jack's bitchy comments about being left behind), whereas Torchwood has made it explicit -- and to my mind, making one pairing explicit actually sort of reduces the overall slash factor for me. And, yeah, the overall quality of writing is very different between DW (I'd grade it 8-9) and Torchwood (I'd say around a 6).

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I have provided a poll with additional fandoms (http://thefourthvine.livejournal.com/99145.html), including TW and DW each with their own separate questions. Yay for science!

And, oh my god, you're right: I had totally forgotten about Remus and Sirius when I voted! Although, by weight, it's still not a super-slashy fandom. Hmmm. *ponder ponder ponder*