thefourthvine: Two people fucking, rearview: sex is the universal fandom. (Default)
Keep Hoping Machine Running ([personal profile] thefourthvine) wrote2010-05-25 11:36 pm
Entry tags:

[Meta]: The Audience

I would like to expand on one point of my previous rant, which is:

It matters when you are part of the audience.

I spent my childhood reading stories about kids who find various magical things and go on adventures, and also just about every children's book ever published in the UK. I couldn't imagine myself in those books - it was obvious that I was never going to find a magic amulet or a secret corridor or a sand fairy; our house didn't even have a basement - but I certainly knew they were written for me.

And then I became a teenager. I was still voraciously reading, and struggling to find the genre that fit me as well as my childhood reading had. I read everything I could find - hard SF to Anne Rice, Dorothy Sayers to Charlotte MacLeod. I also read an awful lot of stuff published before 1900. (My flirtations with plain fiction and romance novels didn't pan out. I'm just not that type of girl, apparently.)

I kept casting around, though. And I kept going back and secretly re-reading the books I'd loved as a kid. Partly that was because, okay, I read like I breathed, and there were only so many books in the world, and I couldn't afford to turn my back on old favorites. But partly that was because I missed something about those books, something I couldn't identify, something I described to myself as a feeling of safety.

When I found fan fiction, I realized what I was missing. I missed being part of the audience.

I know, I know: you read something, you are obviously part of the audience. But I'm talking about the imaginary audience, the audience in the author's head, the one the book is written for.

Like, I love Sayers. But it's obvious that she didn't consider Jews as part of her audience - she considered them vaguely lesser beings. (I am picking on Sayers here, but if you read basically any fiction written before, oh, 1940, thereabouts, you will wonder if there was some kind of rule that a Greasy Money-Grubbing Jew had to appear in at least one out of every three books. If the GMGJ doesn't appear, it's only because the concept of Jews was so dirty they couldn't imagine bringing them up at all, in any context whatsoever.)

I read, and still read, a lot of hard SF, and it was impossible for me to miss the fact that women, when they appeared in these books, tended to be a) non-sentient (or merely very, very stupid), b) silent (sometimes supportive, sometimes listening, and sometimes just mute), c) present entirely for the sex interest (chance of prostitution: 30%), d) evil, or e) dead (often to further the plot or the hero's arc). Sometimes they managed all five. And if the author wanted all five of those to appear in his novel, one woman was probably going to have to pull it off, because it was a rare hard SF book that had five on-screen female characters. (A character is on-screen, by my definition, if she actually appears in the pages, rather than simply being referred to by other characters. Someone whose sole appearance is as a dead body is not an on-screen character. This rules out an awful lot of women.)

It's the same thing with being a lesbian except worse. A lot, lot worse. I will not bring up my disability, because I don't talk about it here, except to say that if that part of me appears in a story, it will be as either a clever gimmick (and a chance for a main character to grow as a person) or a sob story (and a chance for a main character to grow as a person). (No, there will never be a main character just like me. Most of the time I think that's normal, and then I look at, say, SF and think standard-issue straight white guys must have a whole different experience on this issue. How weird would it be, to have basically all mainstream media written for you like that?)

And that's just the short list. There's also such things as the random brutality to women, or, on the other side, the threat of rape presented casually, as a plot point or even as a joke, as though it were kind of like getting your car impounded and not, you know, more like dying, but having to live through it. There's all the moments in books that have made me wince away from the page for a second, thinking: wow, low blow. Or even, seriously? Did you seriously just say that?

I have loved books that featured all of those things - the dead girls, the joke rapes, the greasy Jews, the stereotyped lesbians who die at the end, the missing and evil and mute and stupid and refrigerated women. I have loved lots of books that make things I love or am or do or enjoy a joke, or a mark of evil, or nonexistent. And I still love a lot of those books. I just love them knowing I am trespassing a little, walking where I wasn't invited and am not welcome and am not supposed to be.

And here's the thing: it is painful to love something that palpably does not want you, does not see you, does not know you exist. We all remember that from high school, right? Well, in professional fiction, for quite a lot of us, high school keeps right on going.

High school, in that sense (and only in that sense, oh thank you universe and assorted deities that high school ended for me lo these many years ago and I will never, ever have to go back), ended for me when I found fan fiction. I recognized it immediately, thought, this is for me.

I was part of the audience again.

Let me repeat it: being part of the audience matters.

I think this is a big part of the discussions we keep having in fandom about things like race and gender and religion and culture and disability. (And other stuff, all the stuff I am leaving out and about to kick myself for.) People in fandom are saying: "I am here, too. I am a member of your audience, too. So why do you keep pushing me out of the building or locking me in the cabinet under the stairs?"

Here's the thing about fandom: it is not as good a fit for many people as it is for me. (Queer and female - these things are practically the order of the day in my neck of the woods. Jewish isn't the majority or anything, but blatant anti-semitism is rare enough that it generally merits a friends-locked post of nauseated horror. And we aren't going to talk about the disability thing, remember?) But fandom, as a whole, is trying to pay attention to the people out there, trying to treat them as they want to be treated. I mean, I'm trying! I have failed badly, on multiple counts, many times, but I am reading and paying attention and I am honestly trying, and I am prepared to assume that almost everyone else in fandom is doing that, too. (They may be reading and learning about different things than I am, but everyone can screw up on something. Which can be more cheerfully expressed as "everyone has something to learn," I guess. Except I am not the woman who goes for the optimistic spin, sorry.)

I mean, I could write letters to pro writers forever:

Dear Larry Niven (et al, et al, oh god et al),

One half of your species is female. Human and female. It's possible. LEARN TO DEAL. IT IS NOT TOO LATE.

<3,
TFV

Or:

Dear Georgette Heyer (and everyone else writing before 1940),

For Christ's sake, woman, stop with the greasy money-grubbing Jews already. Or just stop writing Jews altogether. In some cases, invisibility is actually a gift. I am prepared to accept that gift from you! It will even come with a wholly appropriate letter of thanks. Hand-written. I know you like the niceties.

<3,
TFV

Or:

Dear Janet Evanovich (a special case!),

Racism, homophobia, misogyny - seriously, I could go on and on, but. Look. Just pick one. Just one, and eliminate that, and I will stop making fun of you for dragging out an unbelievable love triangle for so long that the poor thing is stretched thinner than paper and is all worn away around the edges, so much so that people now use the term "a Ranger-Steph-Morelli" to describe any exceptionally beaten-into-the-ground plot device. (I can't promise to stop writing my Ranger/Steph/Morelli OT3, though, because someone has got to fix that shit, and apparently I can't help myself.)

<3,
TFV

But the thing is, no matter how many letters I write, the pro writers aren't going to read them, let alone care.

In fandom, I have faith that people are reading, and that they care.

So thank you, fandom, for making me a part of your audience, for remembering that I am here, even if I don't look or act or think or fuck exactly like you do.

And thank you for being here, reading. I promise to do my best to remember that you're there, and to learn as much as I can so I can do that better.

And that - that is something that fandom has for me, that professional writing never will: community, and an audience where I belong.

And that matters.
quinfirefrorefiddle: Van Gogh's painting of a mulberry tree. (Default)

[personal profile] quinfirefrorefiddle 2010-05-26 06:49 am (UTC)(link)
I, um, yes, yay to all of this, excellent rant. I like early Heinlein, and yet I spent a lot of time wanting to smack him, etc.

But my id is showing. You write Plum fanfiction? That was my adolescent fandom- not only was I an adolescent when I was in it, but it was also my horribly awkward stage of writing with lots of acne and insecurity. I stopped reading the series several books ago, and I left the fandom around book number 9, but... links, please?
quinfirefrorefiddle: Van Gogh's painting of a mulberry tree. (Default)

[personal profile] quinfirefrorefiddle 2010-05-27 01:31 am (UTC)(link)
If you need a beta, I wrote that fandom between books... six and eight, I think? I was on the Yahoo Group, and I wrote the fic where Ranger's ex wife was a Lutheran pastor (gee, what a surprise). I also created the Plum Soapbox group, which was for non-Plum related debates, and I was involved in the PlumCrazy boards around the turn of the millennium. I am an unrepentant Rangerbabe, but I do remember one really spectacular R/S/M fic called "Three is Not a Crowd" or something that involved them getting married, dancing a modified tarantella at their wedding, becoming Episcopalians and Steph having two kids. I don't think it's on the internet anymore, I do the occasional search for it and haven't seen it in years.

I LOVE Moon is a Harsh Mistress, it was my first Heinlein ever, in eighth grade- but I have never heard of this story. Is it on AO3?
stranger: Delenn 1st season B5 (Delenn)

[personal profile] stranger 2010-05-27 02:19 am (UTC)(link)
There's fanfic for Moon is a Harsh Mistress? OMG. I'll check on that in a minute. Meanwhile, Heinlein as a whole is problematic, but for different reasons at different times. I probably don't have to explain, but: the early books hew more or less to the one-women-per-plot rule, though the women tend to be described as awesome and the sex appeal is so obviously pasted-on that I can ignore it. Female space-station engineer! Adventure-fiction writer! Female social roles like empathetic companion or bio-mother shown as *jobs* or valuable skills! The later books, sigh, the best comment I've seen is that Heinlein *must* have been consciously indulging his id, because he couldn't really have produced four pairs of red-headed twins in what amounted to a harem for the lead Heinlein Male, by *accident*. MiaHM falls riiiight between.

It's worse when Spider Robinson does much the same, and openly idolizes Heinlein for it as well. And him an unregenerated 60s hippie radical who ought to know better. Oh, dear.

Your main point about being in the intended audience is even more true (for me) in visual works. I more or less read myself into a lot of male-POV fiction, but it's much more annoying to *see* the male gaze at work on TV (especially in commercials).
denelian: (Default)

[personal profile] denelian 2010-06-02 06:18 am (UTC)(link)
if you find that Moon is a Harsh Mistress fanfic, could you please throw me a link?
stranger: Delenn 1st season B5 (Delenn)

[personal profile] stranger 2010-06-03 03:06 am (UTC)(link)
Found the Yuletide (old archive) and poked around until I got a page with the three Moon is a Harsh Mistress stories from 2007-2008. Those seem to be the full selection from Yuletide. I'd guess the comment above is about the middle story, "Some Origins of the Fire," by Livia.

http://yuletidetreasure.org/archive/fandom_robert_a_heinlein__the_moon_is_a_harsh_mistress.html
denelian: (Default)

[personal profile] denelian 2010-06-03 06:18 am (UTC)(link)
!!! thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
angel_negra: Impulse: head+wall (Headwall)

Oh God, Heinlein...

[personal profile] angel_negra 2010-05-28 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
Man, the timing of this post and this comment. Last night I'd just officially given up on 'Friday' by Heinlein. I barely made it past the gangrape, and the very basic 'racism is bad, mmkay' scene and I just. Couldn't. Take. It. Anymore. I've never wanted more to reach into a book and slap someone.
out_there: Ianto is amused and very adorable (TW: Happy Ianto by cowboyhd)

[personal profile] out_there 2010-05-26 07:06 am (UTC)(link)
That is... actually a really good point. I don't read much pro-stuff these days and mostly it's a lack of motivation. When I do read pro-stuff, it's usually either connected to a current fandom (like, say, reading the Sookie Stackhouse series since I'm watching True Blood) or a Neil Gaiman or Terry Pratchett book. Basically, I spend far more time reading and writing fanfiction than pro, and I think you're right: a lot of it comes down to feeling like these stories, these plots, are written for you, for people just like you, and these are stories specifically designed to appeal to a generic fannish you.

I pick up a pro-book with a sense of uncertainty if it's an unknown author; I have a lot more faith in fannish works, even if I don't know the author.

the threat of rape presented casually, as a plot point or even as a joke, as though it were kind of like getting your car impounded and not, you know, more like dying, but having to live through it.

Off-topic, but I noticed this last night when watching Firefly. I had a moment of mentally thanking Joss Whedon for treating the threat of rape as something disturbing and extremely personally scary. It should be a terrible, horrible idea -- not a joke, not something you can shake off the morning after.
out_there: B-Day Present '05 (Default)

[personal profile] out_there 2010-05-27 12:34 am (UTC)(link)
And then there's Dollhouse, which I don't watch but understand from descriptions to be basically all rape all the time, since the women live in a situation where consent is impossible. *shudders*

I give Dollhouse a bit of leeway, honestly. Mostly because they seemed to go to great lengths to point out that originally, the main character had consented to the whole idea -- the whole lack of personal responsibility and I sort of liked the concept of giving away your ability to choose, effectly agreeing that you don't want the responsibility of choice, is in itself a choice -- and the entire thing was never presented as "oh, this is a great idea" so much as "ooh, this is kind of cool... oh, that's creepy..." kind of reveal.

Mind you, then there was the reveal that one of the dolls was there against her will (a weird one, I have to say, and I'm not entirely sure why that detail needed to be there). Ditto with the rape within the complex... it's just... hm. A show that got a bit muddled as it went on.

Mind you, it's one of those shows that really depends on your personal sensitivities. I liked that play with consent, of where and when it can truly be said to lie. Is it with the original act of agreeing to the treatment? Does consent apply when the dolls currently-active-personality agrees or only where the original personality would have agreed? It hit the right level of creepy and interesting and not-obviously-right-and-wrong, but it's a huge YMMV.

(Anonymous) 2010-06-14 04:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I think Dollhouse is one that you need to see to judge it, not that seeing it will necessarily (or even probably) change your mind at all. I don't think he is setting this up as something that is acceptable, but there are a lot of different levels, and it's complicated, and he isn't explicit about things that many people think he should be.
marina: (Default)

[personal profile] marina 2010-05-26 08:06 am (UTC)(link)

Here's the thing about fandom: it is not as good a fit for many people as it is for me. (Queer and female - these things are practically the order of the day in my neck of the woods. Jewish isn't the majority or anything, but blatant anti-semitism is rare enough that it generally merits a friends-locked post of nauseated horror. And we aren't going to talk about the disability thing, remember?) But fandom, as a whole, is trying to pay attention to the people out there, trying to treat them as they want to be treated. I mean, I'm trying! I have failed badly, on multiple counts, many times, but I am reading and paying attention and I am honestly trying, and I am prepared to assume that almost everyone else in fandom is doing that, too. (They may be reading and learning about different things than I am, but everyone can screw up on something. Which can be more cheerfully expressed as "everyone has something to learn," I guess. Except I am not the woman who goes for the optimistic spin, sorry.)


THIS, god this. This whole post, I love with all my heart, being part of the audience is EXACTLY the difference fanfic makes for me as well.
peoriapeoriawhereart: little girls are stinkers (sweetness and angles)

[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart 2010-05-26 08:51 am (UTC)(link)
Excellent! Yes, I grew up reading a lot of the Asimov etc era sci fi (libraries were biased to hardbounds despite a lot of scifi being pulp paperbacks) and it wasn't until much later I noticed

Only the men are human. Even if they're robots.

I have to figure it took so long because tv shows and movies were so skewed towards male protagonists. And, geek protagonists were precious, but there was a rule about female geeks in fiction

they didn't exist

Which wasn't quite true, there was a girl in Mad Scientists Club. Notice A.
peoriapeoriawhereart: cartoon men (Egon and Peter)

[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart 2010-05-27 02:56 am (UTC)(link)
At some point, while I loved the robot, I wondered why the cop's wife was never seen, even though the city was so densely populated.

Did Asimov _ever_ learn to write women (I don't know if I really found everything, and actually, I gave up on Foundation at 4.

Well, when you are trying to demonstrate that a sufficiently (insert here) robot is a Person, naturally it will be a man. Because I can really only think of one woman that's a full person in Asimov's oeuvre and that's the woman on the colony world where people don't touch except for intercourse.

Sorta funny how they postulate pill meals but won't give up the other appetite, no matter how iceberg lettuce it is.

[identity profile] une-funambule.livejournal.com 2010-05-27 09:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Um, hello, mind if I make a quick objection? It's just that I've been recently thinking hard about my role models from childhood, and seriously: Susan Calvin. The badass genius misantropical robopsychologist from I, Robot. That's enough to like any character if they're written sympathetically. But she also was allowed to fall in love. Stupidly, embarrassingly and unrequitedly. And to survive it just like that. If that's not empowerment, I don't know what is.
peoriapeoriawhereart: Cartoon Stantz post-kafoom (Ray with marshmellow creme)

[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart 2010-05-28 03:57 am (UTC)(link)
Oh dear, I fear I'd forgotten her, but once you've mentioned her, I do seem to recall her. Okay, so Asimov wrote at least two women. Can we get a third?

I fear that I'm having early onset senora moment as well as a bad case of foot in mouth.

[identity profile] une-funambule.livejournal.com 2010-05-28 08:28 am (UTC)(link)
Hmmm, I'm afraid I don't remember anyone as groundbreaking as her, but there were two females in The Gods Themselves. Dua, the alien from the second part, was the only one trying to prevent the destruction of 'our' universe. She had an interesting story, and she was striving to define herself; but the whole concept of their three-gender society (basically, three sexes: clever 'men' who do science, not-clever 'men' who raise offsprings, and not-clever vain idle 'women') will make you weep. And then there is Selena, in the third part, who helps the hero to save the world and convinces him he is not too old for them to love each other. Not much in terms of independency and empowerment, but not that bad.
shadowvalkyrie: (Never 42 cannon)

[personal profile] shadowvalkyrie 2010-05-26 08:56 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, you put something in words that I've been feeling as well but couldn't pin down beyond a generalised frustration with the overwhelming majority of published books, until I read this. Thank you for the epiphany!

[personal profile] tevere 2010-05-26 09:24 am (UTC)(link)
Sometimes we as fandom are a reflection of the problems of the sources, but-- oftentimes we really are fucking transformative (us, making things for us!), and it's AWESOME.

I used to (I guess I still do?) love H.V. Morton's travel writing, which is pretty old-school (English, maybe 1930s or 1940s?), but I remember being horribly taken aback by one of his books about London where he meets a 'Chinaman' under a bridge. The Chinaman of course being described as sallow-yellow-faced, slanty eyed, animal-like posture, blank expressionless face, greasy pigtail, etc. It was like a slap in the face, just-- WHUT.
marina: (Default)

[personal profile] marina 2010-05-26 09:46 am (UTC)(link)
I think the transformative aspect, the idea of writing things for us, has been growing and expanding and becoming more prevalent the more time we spend as a semi-cohesive community. Like, when you have a space like LJ or DW that houses a lot of people and where most discussions and interaction happens in public (unlike on mailing lists where a given list is only going to have a certain set audience), after a while the community becomes more and more aware of itself and starts developing more and more of a distinct culture. I mean that's a general internet feature, but in fandom I think this has truly led to some fascinating things.

[personal profile] tevere 2010-05-28 04:35 am (UTC)(link)
Morton has a lovely, evocative turn of phrase-- some of his images have stayed with me for ages, and he manages to be warm and interested in people and places. I... well, it's been a long time since I've read his books, but he's Quite Christian (some of his books retrace the steps of Jesus and St Paul). I don't exactly remember if his racism-of-the-times included anti-Semitism-of-the-times -- but if you want to avoid the Money Grubbing Jew at all costs, it might be better to choose someone a little more contemporary.

I like Wilfred Thesiger's travel writing, which is shades of TE Lawrence in both its love of the desert and its love of handsome young men. He's all very, "Let the beautiful noble people of the desert stay as they are, and never have cars or roads and the evil trappings of modernity!", but his writing is beautiful.

Maybe I would recommend you Jonathan Raban ('Arabia' and 'Soft City', and he wrote some lovely pieces about California in some online magazine somewhere). He used to be a travel writer, before he moved into the sort of politically-conscious fiction he does now. I remember also liking Tahir Shah, who writes sort of drugged-out surreal travel adventure stuff ('House of the Tiger King', 'Sorcerer's Apprentice'), but I recommended him to one of my flatmates who pronounced him 'unreadable', so I guess he's not for everyone.
ceares: cookie all grown up (same life)

[personal profile] ceares 2010-05-26 10:41 am (UTC)(link)
This exactly. And for so long I didn't even realize how many people were invisible. There was no 'us' on the screen or between the pages and because it was always like that it didn't seem wrong or out of place, just the way it was, and this is why still I believe so many people don't notice it.

Growing older and fandom--thank you fandom--made me a person that notices.
ceares: cookie all grown up (Default)

[personal profile] ceares 2010-05-28 06:36 am (UTC)(link)
Actually that makes me kind of glad my SciFi period was pretty short. I was always more into fantasy which seems to have more of a presence of women both as writers and characters, so there wasn't too much screaming and throwing books across the room. Also the presence of all kinds of fantasy creatures sort of masks the absence of a variety of ethnicities. Though I have to say I do wonder how the stuff I really liked as a kid would appear to me now.
birggitt: Happiness (You are amazing)

[personal profile] birggitt 2010-05-26 10:47 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, yes to all of this!
As an avid reader, I've felt the same invisibility, and I hated how I was forced to identify myself with male characters because there were no females ones.
I believe one of the reasons why I used read comics as a teenager was that there were lots of strong female protagonists there. Yes, there still were a lot of sexism going on, but WOMEN! \o/ As protagonists!
So, yes, I totally agree with you, except that I never would have been able to express it myself in an articulate way, so thank you! :D

erda: (Default)

[personal profile] erda 2010-05-26 11:15 am (UTC)(link)
Yes times 1,000,000 to all of this, but especially:

standard-issue straight white guys must have a whole different experience on this issue. How weird would it be, to have basically all mainstream media written for you like that?

I would love to be able to get this single point across to quite a few men I know who just do not get it.
jain: Chae Yeon leaning forward and smiling. Text: "Jain" (chae yeon)

[personal profile] jain 2010-05-26 05:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, God, yes. I was complaining to a friend's boyfriend once about white protagonists in Avatar, District 9, and The Last Airbender, and the paucity of female leads in films that aren't romances, and so on. To which he replied, "Huh. I never realized this before, but I really don't have a strong investment in seeing characters who resemble me in the media I consume."

And my head exploded at him framing our entire argument as, "Some people need personal validation in their media in a way that I don't," (with a distinct undercurrent of smugness at how openminded he was to feel that way, unlike the rest of us plebes) when the entire reason he doesn't think he needs that sort of validation is that 90% of the media he consumes gives it to him free of charge just for being white, male, straight, cisgendered, etc.
phoebe_zeitgeist: (Default)

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist 2010-05-28 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't mean to argue with you about the basis of your friend's boyfriend's argument here, or in any way to suggest that I don't have faith that you're right -- after all, you know the guy and were in a position to evaluate the underpinnings of his belief.

But because it's easy to forget how much individual variation there can be in people's reactions to social phenomena, including social phenomena we're embedded in, I feel idiotically obliged to state for the record that I really don't have a strong investment in seeing characters who resemble me in the media I consume. And I'm a woman, and one who doesn't fall on the privileged side of anything like all items on the standard identity group checklist.

I mean, yeah, it's fun on the vanishingly rare occasions when there are characters who resemble me in media. But it's fun, no more and no less; it's not a revelation of how alienating everything else is. I've had to learn about the importance of representation by listening, and by observing real-life effects on people who aren't me.

From which I conclude that at least a fraction of the white straight guys who claim they don't have an emotional need for representation genuinely don't -- which of course in some ways only makes the situation worse, since they provide cover for the vast majority who're just happily deluding themselves about their broadmindedness.
tiny_turtle: (Default)

[personal profile] tiny_turtle 2010-05-26 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I would love to be able to get this single point across to quite a few men I know who just do not get it.

YES. If nothing else, at least this.
starwatcher: Western windmill, clouds in background, trees around base. (Default)

[personal profile] starwatcher 2010-05-29 05:28 am (UTC)(link)
.
standard-issue straight white guys must have a whole different experience on this issue.

When I was a wee young feminist - feeling that things weren't quite right in my world, but without the concepts to figure it out - my boyfriend was reading the blurb on the back of one of my sci-fi books. He thought it sounded kind of neat, and was in the middle of asking me if he could borrow it, when he turned it over to look at the title and discovered the author was a woman. (Barbara Hambly or Vonda McIntyre; I don't remember which.) At that moment, he no longer wanted to read the book.

For reals.

He wasn't my boyfriend for much longer. Not because of that, precisely, but it was a symptom of his overall mindset.
.
ell: (the right stuff)

[personal profile] ell 2010-05-26 12:00 pm (UTC)(link)
You have just made me realize why Ursula LeGuin is my favorite sci-fi author of all time. She writes to *me*

Also, I want to read your Ranger/Steph/Morelli more than words can express.

[personal profile] indywind 2010-05-26 12:05 pm (UTC)(link)
And here's the thing: it is painful to love something that palpably does not want you, does not see you, does not know you exist. We all remember that from high school, right? Well, in professional fiction, for quite a lot of us, high school keeps right on going.

Not just fiction. Life. And life has no cover to close, no backbutton.
umbo: B-24 bomber over Pacific (Default)

[personal profile] umbo 2010-05-26 12:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I love this post, and you, very much.

*hugs* and *smootches* and ♥
nigeltde: lucille doesn't think so (oh this is unimpressive)

[personal profile] nigeltde 2010-05-26 12:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Spot on essay.

You know I just finished The Mote In God's Eye and it sure wasn't much fun being slapped in the face every few pages by Niven and Pournelle's atrocious handle on the single human female character. I hate them for Sally Fowler, who could have been awesome but was instead just the possibility of awesome warped into some fifties freakshow of prim, indulged, privileged femininity. UGH.
bell: rory gilmore running in the snow in a fancy dress (hold)

[personal profile] bell 2010-05-26 05:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh I am so glad I ran into this comment; my brother's been trying to getme to read that book and though I did try it out, I ended up putting it down after the first few pages because I got the sense it wasn't quite for me. I guess I was right!
nigeltde: jane gives the old wink wink nudge nudge (SAY NO MORE!)

[personal profile] nigeltde 2010-05-27 09:21 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, you heard the warning bells all right; I continued read in vain hope. I'm sure you found something better to read!
nigeltde: tara thornton doesn't like you (oh hale no)

[personal profile] nigeltde 2010-05-29 08:54 am (UTC)(link)
A thousand times yes; every single instance where she shows up something vehemently objectionable happens -- that discussion of birth control -- oh, that's only something trashy women do -- OH MY GOD NIVEN AND POURNELLE YOU ASSHOLES -- and despite being as you say the anthropologist and one of the few who'd gone planetside at the end she's shut out of the backroom discussion and happily whiles away her time buying dresses and planning honeymoons, just like a silly little girl should.

I might not be over reading this book yet.
kate: Kate Winslet is wryly amused (Default)

[personal profile] kate 2010-05-26 01:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I am really not coherent enough to give good feedback, it's far too early, and I have far too many thoughts running through my head at the moment, but thank you for this. It's brilliant, and something I had never pinned down before. Brilliant. Thank you.
devohoneybee: (ivanova is god)

in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] devohoneybee 2010-05-26 01:19 pm (UTC)(link)
oh god I love you so much right now.

I remember the sense of serious DISTURBANCE around age 14 or so when I was reading a TON of Asimov, Clark, and the rest of the hard sci fi boys, and feeling like there was something wrong with me for dreaming at night that I was a male character. I didn't want to identify as male -- I am very happily FEMALE, thank you very much -- and eventually realized that that was my only choice because those were the only characters who DID anything in the stories and I wanted to be interesting and adventurous and smart like them. The discovery of Le Guin, as someone above mentioned, was revolutionary, though even she focused on male characters in her earlier work (her ambi-gendered characters in The Left Hand of Darkness still came with male pronouns and a more or less male default, but she was TRYING, and in her later work has gotten a lot more female centered). I also adored Delaney's "Babel 17", with the polyamorous poet starship captain genius, Rydra Wong. Who solved a major galactic problem with her understanding of LANGUAGE.

I can't say I can recall too many sci fi or fantasy Jewish characters who actually read as Jewish to me (sorry, Willow Rosenberg doesn't count). And don't get me started on money-grubbing Jew-coded Ferengi...

Ah, a lot more to think about with this. Fandom, oh yes, and not in a literal way, either. Where women writing about men fucking is actually for me. Because it acknowledges something even more profound about me that is missing in most of the fiction you cited -- that as a woman, I have sexual fantasies and desires that are part of my own agency and fulfillment, not about filling a man's concept of what I should want or be.
peoriapeoriawhereart: Janine Melnitz, Ghostbuster (Janine)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart 2010-05-26 02:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, yes she is.
cereta: (ivanova)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] cereta 2010-05-26 02:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Asimov was literally my first experience of, "...wait. How come there's no women, here?"
adalger: Earthrise as seen from the moon, captured on camera by the crew of Apollo 16 (Default)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] adalger 2010-05-26 03:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Babel 17 ... is that the one where the captain has to figure out how to wear and use feathers to save the aliens from destruction, and the ship becomes a person? God, that sounds like a Better Than It Sounds from TVTropes, but that's all I can think of to put it into words.
ellen_fremedon: overlapping pages from Beowulf manuscript, one with a large rubric, on a maroon ground (Default)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] ellen_fremedon 2010-05-26 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
No, that's Janet Kagen's Hellspark :-)

Babel-17 is the one with the poet heroine who's lost two spouses (simultaneously; it was an OT3)the pilot with the fangs. (And it gets all the linguistics totally and utterly wrong in every way they can be, and I wish it didn't because damn it's a good space opera.)
adalger: Earthrise as seen from the moon, captured on camera by the crew of Apollo 16 (Default)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] adalger 2010-05-26 03:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay. Must find copy of Hellspark for reread. That's been on my list of "books I so want to read again but forgot the title" forever. Thank you!

Now I need to put Babel-17 on my to-find list. I don't remember whether I've read it or not.
devohoneybee: (teyla fights like a girl)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God - BABEL 17 SPOILERS

[personal profile] devohoneybee 2010-05-26 03:34 pm (UTC)(link)
no, that's the one where she saves the galaxy by understanding that the language of the warring factions has been systemmatically sabotaged to warp their thinking towards hate and war, and sets about to correct it with repairative memes. No,really. Also, there are space pirates. And telepathy. And group marriages. And freak-love. Seriously, this book is crack. Probably not a coincidence that Delaney is a queer Black man.
rhi: Zoe Washburne.  Fights like a girl, all right. (Zoe)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God - BABEL 17 SPOILERS

[personal profile] rhi 2010-05-26 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
::*STARING*:: We've known each other more on than off for a dozen years and you've never told me about this book?!?!? I foresee library trips!
dragonfly: (amazing)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] dragonfly 2010-05-26 05:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Where women writing about men fucking is actually for me. Because it acknowledges something even more profound about me that is missing in most of the fiction you cited -- that as a woman, I have sexual fantasies and desires that are part of my own agency and fulfillment, not about filling a man's concept of what I should want or be.

And that's a brilliant coda to a brilliant post, imo.
devilc: (LydiaFights)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] devilc 2010-05-26 08:38 pm (UTC)(link)
What Dragonfly just said.
rhi: Sam Carter in her lab.  Geeky IS sexy. (geeky is sexy)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] rhi 2010-05-26 08:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Yup. Ditto.
rydra_wong: Lee Miller photo showing two women wearing metal fire masks in England during WWII. (Default)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] rydra_wong 2010-05-27 05:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I also adored Delaney's "Babel 17", with the polyamorous poet starship captain genius, Rydra Wong. Who solved a major galactic problem with her understanding of LANGUAGE.

I assume the fact that I imprinted on that novel at a very early age is self-evident.
devohoneybee: (ivanova is god)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] devohoneybee 2010-05-27 05:28 pm (UTC)(link)
*grins* you might say that.
devohoneybee: (Default)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] devohoneybee 2010-05-29 11:09 am (UTC)(link)
They evolved into real characters later, but the original presentation of Ferengi (on Star Trek: Next Generation) was short, hunched aliens with big noses, pre-occupied with the accumulation of gold (later "gold-pressed latinum"), literally rubbing their hands about it, who were sneaky, conniving, and (at least some of them) obsessed with abducting and forcibly marrying human or human-like women. Oh, and who quoted the "Laws of Acquisition" with a Talmudic style of argumentation and fastidiousness. Oh, and cheating others is okay with the Laws of Acquisition. In other words, with the possible exception of the abduction of "our women", a total money-grubbing Jew stereotype, complete with "the Talmud condones cheating Gentiles".
stranger: Centaurus galaxy on starfield (centaurus eye)

Re: in summary, Ivanova is God

[personal profile] stranger 2010-06-03 02:26 am (UTC)(link)
Just to show how awesome fandom has been even before slash became a major genre, from the zine days there are at least a couple of fan novels and story series with major Jewish female characters. They were in Starfleet, being officers, sometimes romancing Spock/Sulu/Kirk, travelling the galaxy, and all that. One was Fiona Feldman (Tales of Feldman) and one was Ruth Valley (story series in In a Different Reality zines). I doubt those were the only ones.
dzurlady: (Cake or Death - icons_by_li)

[personal profile] dzurlady 2010-05-26 01:58 pm (UTC)(link)
(No, there will never be a main character just like me. Most of the time I think that's normal, and then I look at, say, SF and think standard-issue straight white guys must have a whole different experience on this issue. How weird would it be, to have basically all mainstream media written for you like that?)
I remember hearing on the radio about a study that found that many young male readers will not read a book where the protagonist is not a guy, and the people talking about the study were wondering what made girls different; I wanted to shout at them that the only difference was that girls did not have that luxury. Argh.


(I can't promise to stop writing my Ranger/Steph/Morelli OT3, though, because someone has got to fix that shit, and apparently I can't help myself.)
OMG, I could look for fanfic. I never thought of that before.
beachlass: red flipflops by water (Default)

[personal profile] beachlass 2010-05-26 02:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for such a thoughtful and illuminating post.
cereta: Rhetorica with "Rhetoricians For OTW" (Rhetoricians for OTW)

[personal profile] cereta 2010-05-26 02:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes. To all of this.
vass: Jon Stewart reading a dictionary (books)

[personal profile] vass 2010-05-26 03:10 pm (UTC)(link)
This is completely off-topic, but have you read Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy? It's written in the specific niche of "children's fantasy for adults who like Shakespeare." And unlike many of the children's books it draws on, it has sympathetic parents who respect their children's intelligence.
jesse_the_k: text: Be kinder than need be: everyone is fighting some kind of battle (lost youth)

[personal profile] jesse_the_k 2010-05-26 03:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Yay! Excellent post.

Pippi Longstocking made a base layer when I was wee. I inhaled Heinlein juveniles and Andre Norton, but something was missing.

Alexei Panshin's Rite of Passage was the world-changer for me. Like its hero, I was a 13 year old girl, getting ready to be an adult. Mia is learning, and brave, and makes mistakes, and takes challenging moral and political opinions. I was no longer satisfied with books that purposefully omitted my agency: I went hunting for books with real people, even when they're shown in fantastic surrounding.
Edited (laid low by a homophone) 2010-05-26 15:31 (UTC)
adalger: Earthrise as seen from the moon, captured on camera by the crew of Apollo 16 (Default)

[personal profile] adalger 2010-05-26 03:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Am I the only one who saw that edit as "laid low by a homophobe"?
jesse_the_k: Lucy the ACD's butt & tail are all that's visible since her head is down a gopher hole (LUCY gopher hunter)

*snorfle*

[personal profile] jesse_the_k 2010-05-26 03:39 pm (UTC)(link)
hee hee choke gag splat.
giglet: (Henry gives the office)

[personal profile] giglet 2010-05-26 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes.

Thank you.
jadelennox: Senora Sabasa Garcia, by Goya (Default)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2010-05-26 03:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I wanted to start this comment with "as one queer disabled female Jew to another" but there is a difference between us, and that is that your smart is so smart it burns. This whole essay is spot-on and formulates things that I had never thought in so many words before.

The Grand Sophy is one of my favorite romances of all time, and yes, that would probably horrify Heyer. And I can tell, because wow does that character and his placement in the book as the embodiment of all greed and evil hurt every time. (Not to mention that it makes me furious the way Sophy uses her class privilege to dick him out of what he's owed, and that we have to root for her while she's explicitly taking part in the form of financial exploitation of Jewish moneylenders by high status people who refuse to pay them, which was the status quo in Europe for hundreds years.)

Every now and then, hard science fiction writes interesting female characters -- and then they have to go and ruin it with the planet where all the women are getting raped all the time. (I'm looking at *you*, David Weber.)

I'm glad that I get to read stories that are written for me. Everybody deserves that.
locknkey: (LovePink)

[personal profile] locknkey 2010-05-26 04:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Said so much better than I could hope to and it rings true.

I've only been in fandom for a short time, but I am already a more critical reader and i hope a better writer.

As a young reader I think Nancy Drew was my first real love - of the I want to read all of these - although I remember being a bit put off that her father so often had to come to her aid.

I was pulled into fantasy and sci fi as a teen. I think I was pulled to the fantasy side more because many of the stories I loved featured fully developed female characters - not as protagonist (although sometimes that too). The books I tend to buy and re-read are those that speak loudest to me as audience and it is a definite draw in fan fiction.

I can admit I have spent a lot of time wondering why women want to read/write so many stories about M/M relationships. I do it myself but I don't have any good answers for the appeal.

Fan fiction has raised my awareness of a lot of things I took for granted. It has caused me to be more self-critical and more thoughtful in my reading and writing and the more I involve myself in this amazing community the more grateful I become for having found it.
sinensis: Changbin in his blue onesie, smiling provocatively. (Default)

[personal profile] sinensis 2010-05-26 05:13 pm (UTC)(link)
So very well put, all I can say is "yes, this." And give you my thanks for posting it.
bell: rory gilmore running in the snow in a fancy dress (coy gaga)

[personal profile] bell 2010-05-26 05:15 pm (UTC)(link)
♥ Yes, this, so much. Fandom is a space of dialogue and as a whole we seem to be more accessible and willing to try to, as my girlfriend puts it, "fail better."
peoriapeoriawhereart: cartoon men (Egon and Peter)

[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart 2010-05-26 06:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I do think Fail Better is a very useful concept (please tender my regards). Shows that there is Process.

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