thefourthvine | Poll: When Good Isn't Good Enough

Entry tags:

[poll]

Poll: When Good Isn't Good Enough

This post is friends-locked, not to exclude anyone, but because I can see how it could bite me on the butt. Once bitten, twice shy, and that goes double if it's my buttocks that are in jeopardy. (Which isn't to say no one can bite me on the butt, because, you know, some people are welcome to, but...you know what? Let's not go there. There's knowledge man was not meant to know, and there's knowledge no reasonable person wants to know.) If all goes well, I'll unlock it in a few days, because I would really like to hear from everyone on this. (Note: now no longer friends-locked!)

Now, on to the pre-poll. (Please move in an orderly fashion. No flash cameras or video allowed. Not suitable for children under three.)

How do you recommend something that's flawed? My policy has always been that if I have to put in a caveat of any kind, I won't be recommending it. (There's a practical reason for this. Actually, two. First, if I start mentioning weaknesses and strengths, it's the first step on the slippery slope to balanced perspectives, and impartiality, and thought-provoking essays, and...look, I didn't start this LJ to reprise my college English classes. I live two blocks from a college. If I wanted to write papers, I could go do it for post-graduate credit; here, I want to be idiosyncratic and personal and wildly biased. Second reason - fandom is wonderful. But it's also a bit bitey, if you see what I mean. A lot of authors view their stories as babies (boy, did I learn that one the hard way, when I was young and relatively pure), and they respond instinctively and violently to any criticism, no matter how constructive or carefully-phrased or accurate or surrounded by truthfully positive remarks. I don't need more flames, thanks.)

The no-recommending-if-it's-got-a-flaw-worth-mentioning policy has worked for more than a year. But over that year, my list of stories that I consider unrecommendable but still want to keep and re-read has grown and grown. It contains two major categories of problem stories:

Older stories. These mostly come from older fandoms and they're written to outdated conventions. You know the kind I mean. Purple prose, and romance-novel language, and soul-searing kisses in the Rain of Nebulous Angst, and, look. I can handle all that stuff. In the presence of sufficient brilliance, I can even ignore it. But in the oldest fandoms, it was the default writing style; everything seems to have been written with Barbara Cartland firmly in mind. (Yes, there are exceptions. Many exceptions. I'm generalizing here, so stay with me.)

There are other problems with the older stuff, too - for example, things that we now consider the worst kind of cliche (yes, there are good cliches; I love many of them), presented with painful sincerity. Yes, I know they weren't cliches then. It doesn't help as much as you'd hope. Or - no, never mind with the list-making, because this isn't a rant. Let me just say instead that fandom has changed a lot since Kirk and Spock were staring into each other's blazing eyes, hardly daring to hope that this one poignant gesture of agonizing, consuming, soul-burning passion could be forgiven, and I'm happy with most of those changes. But there are some good stories from those days. Some great ones, too.
Cracked diamonds. These are unrecommendable because of a serious problem. Many of them are are visibly, noticeably, and highly regrettably unbeta'd. Others have a fucked up plot, or tin-ear dialog, or a character doing an absolutely out-of-character thing, or a writing experiment that didn't quite work. The list goes on and on. And yet, some of these stories also have elements that are sheer genius. It's not surprising. After all, these are the authors who aren't afraid to try experiments, right? Some work. Some really don't. And sometimes the working and the non-working are in the same story, unfortunately.

I recently read a story that had a scene that was perfect. That scene was - OK, I think I can give some specifics without revealing too much. It was a Smallville story, and it was the Clark-finally-tells-Lex scene. (Not about the gay gay love. Lex already knows about that, or he's not as smart as he thinks he is. About the Alien Among Us thing.) And it was the best I've ever seen it done, just amazing, so perfectly written and in character and right that I wanted to weep. And then I realized that the story could never be recommended unless a good beta got ahold of it and did some very thorough work, and then I really wanted to weep. I have a lot of these stories, especially in fandoms beginning with 'S' (And has anyone ever noticed just how many fandoms do begin with 'S'? If I was making a new TV show, I'd call it Staruniverse. Maybe Super Sexy Staruniverse.) - SG1, SGA, SV, SW, and The Sentinel, which might or might not be an S-fandom.

I want to recommend these stories. Badly, in certain cases. But I have no means to do so, because my own rules prohibit recommending any story if I need to add a warning. (I do occasionally warn. But only about potentially disturbing content, or very rarely about first-level beta stuff - lots of usage mistakes, basically. Not about more serious or pervasive problems.)

So. On to the poll.

[Poll #490902]

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I answered the "other" on the reccing because I rarely rec anything, not because so few things catch my attention, but because I'm really lazy.

I think something that sticks with you, that *does* have moments of sheer genius, ought to be recommended. But I get your hesitation; there are things I'm unsure of reccing publicly because I don't know how to explain why I'm reccing without giving everything away.

So maybe a separate category? Diamonds, Rough and Otherwise, or something, where you can rec what you like without the pressure of the Slashy Awards.

Also: Library school rocks, but pharmacy school would result in a higher-paying job.

If I think something has a flaw, I mention it, but I don't make a big deal out of it. I'll say something like "Has a few grammatical errors" or "A little dated" or "Sappy, but hits my buttons." I generally don't recommend something I think is hugely flawed, but if I did, I'd mention it.

Babe, rec what you want to rec. This is your playground, so build that sandcastle however you want it. If a story is flawed, we can handle it. It might be cool if you could leave us a warning, so that we don't think you've gone off your nut (depending on what's wrong with the story, that is), but if you don't want to, also cool. ( :

1. I am quite inconsistent about making recs--it really depends so much on my mood on my individual day.

2. I think you could make the recs under the headings of cracked diamonds or whatever, and that would work fine.

3. Dude, I feel completely incapable of giving anyone any sort of career advice right now, but I do hope whatever you choose works out great!

I have often said to someone, "I read this story, it was crap, but this one scene..."

I don't really rec much myself, but I'll rec the flawed-but-worthy types. I'd prefer polished brilliance to rough brilliance, but I'll take what I can get.

I am in NO position to offer anyone career advice.

I think you should go ahead and recommend them. If you want to put in a caveat ("Could use work from a beta," or "back in the day before the cliche was a cliche", or something)...I tend to recommend things pretty randomly, if I felt better after reading it then it's probably okay to rec. But I'm not a perfectionist...or for that matter a very good reccer!

Oh, and I read them when they're in a fandom or genre that interests me...you're in a lot of fandoms I'm not, and some of the pairings totally don't interest me, but when you hit on something in my field, I usually do read and like them. :)

I'm not offering any advice on your personal life, because I don't know enough to speak wisely. Do what your heart tells you.

I love the idea of a "Cracked Diamond" category.

I rarely read what you rec (sorry) because it's almost never in my fandoms, and the ones that are I've already read. But I find your commentary entertaining. :D

You could go to pharmacy school and be a good pharmacist and smile when you hand out the emergency contraception, and this would be a nice change from the other pharmacists sweeping the country. Or you could keep freelancing, or whatever works for you.

I answered "other" for reccing, because I tend to only rec stuff on impulse, not in any organized or hierarchical fashion.

Also, I do suggest that you recommend some of these flawed-in-some-way stories -- because I'd love to read them! -- but differentiate them from your awards-type recs.

Unfortunately, I don't have a brilliant solution for doing so, but if you're concerned about author reaction, perhaps you should just refer to them as stories that you have certain reservations about, or issues with, rather than flat-out stating that they're flawed. (Although I personally wouldn't care if someone described a story of mine as "flawed.")

I mean, I wouldn't even need to know *why* you have second thoughts about reccing them normally; the simple fact that you do would be enough warning for me.

I do recommend flawed stories from time to time, and I do so with warnings of what the problem is. But I admit I'm a chicken shit--I only do this when I'm fairly certain that the author isn't on lj or doesn't move in my circles.

As far as your recommendations--I enjoy the stories you rec in the fandoms that I read. A lot of times, I just enjoy your fascinating write-ups. :)

What do you normally do about such stories?

It depends on how small the fandom is. And what the overall feel of the fandom is. I recced a lot more OTT stuff in TPM, because it was a very OTT fandom. If you wanted to rec only modern, understated, crisp stories, you wouldn't be able to rec any K/S, practically. And in fandoms with only three or four major pieces of fiction, I believe thoroughness is far more valuable than selectiveness.

Then again, I rec with caveats. I'm not sure why nobody throws tantrums at me or flames me the way they do you, but I seem to be allowed a bit more leeway to say what I did and did not like about a story. Is

cimorene111 on this filter? Because her take on this is fascinating - you know she's a high-volume reccer who gives heavy caveats, but she once told me that if she recced only stories she thought were truly great she'd only have a handful.

I would like to see you, TFV, handle these stories thusly:

I am all PMSy and schmoopy right now, but I have to say, I hate the idea of anyone being mean to you ever. All those people who flame your or complain about being recced or whatever? I HATE them. Bitches! BACK OFF MY OTP. So, I kind of want you to be safe.

On the other hand, as a voracious reader myself, I want to know what these stories are! I want to READ them, because half of them would probably not bother me nearly as much as they bother you and sometimes it's the good-despite stuff that is most memorable. It HAS to be, for us to want to hang onto it like that even though it's got XYZ problems.

I enjoy the stories you recommend.

HELL yes. They're sometimes a bit short, but that's the fault of the authors. :) And me, for being a size queen in fic as in other things.

As long as you're here, please give me some career advice.

BABIES AND LIBRARIES. Um. Anything that lets you get away from the Felon Lady. I am greedy so I want us to have kids together so we can reassure one another about our parenting neuroses and have playgroup and stuff. Um, when we come to visit. And right now I am just unhappy with what I am doing (which has some of the same drawbacks as your freelancing gig) and I want to go to library school. So I am probably projecting some. Or, a lot. *squidges OTP* How come you live so far away?

I'd like to see these "problematic" stories handled with a recommendation, because you like them, and want others to read them, but with comments, rather than warnings, as in, "in my opinion it needed serious beta work for unnecessary misspellings that detract from the story," or "The prose may be too florid for your taste, but stick with it." You know. Subjective comments, rather than specific, rigid types of warnings: "WARNING: Purple Prose" or "BE WARNED: typos."

Well, since you committed me to comments with the poll, here goes:

I rec whatever I'm in the mood to rec. Sometimes I want to draw attention to an author, if not the story they just wrote. Sometimes I want to give an ego boost. Sometimes I think something was amazing, and if there's even one person on my f-list who has not read this thing mentioned *everywhere else*, why, it is my fannish duty to share this with them. I rec even if there was an issue I had with the story, and sometimes I'll say if I had one, or sometimes I won't, because you know--sometimes what hits me wrong might be another person's cup of tea and with me saying that I didn't enjoy some aspect, I don't want to send them in there with that sort of...weird bias.

I tend to think through how I rec things way more than I should, I suspect, and if I ever suspect that multiple people might appreciate a specific warning, I do that for them.

Also, I am very curious on the SV story you mentioned. Would you mind e-mailing me?

Oh, and so you don't 'die of curiosity', I just like the *way* you rec things, but no, I don't read them. My recs are...really straight-forward and rather unpretty most of the time, but I still do them because finding a SV reccer is a precious and rare thing these days, and I genuinely like doing it. *g* You make stories sound gloriously interesting, and I'm sure sometime I'll come back to them and pick a random fandom or theme and just go for it. But for now, I just like reading what you consider to be important in a rec, how you structure your reasoning.

If I'm rec'ing an older story, I usually mention that it's older and assume that people reading will draw the correct inferences about quality etc. Same goes for the stories with grammatical flaws -- usually I say something like, "some problems, but the such-and-such scene is pure brilliance."

For the purposes of recs here, though, I like the suggestion about categorizing them as "Diamonds, Rough and Otherwise" -- it seems to address your concerns while giving you flexibility to rec stories you feel are worth reading.

when i recommend stories, i generally include whatever thoughts i have about how good they are, or what their flaws are, even if they're very good. sometimes i don't feel the flaw is worth mentioning. frequently i don't go into it in great detail, but i like to characterise what it is generally because different problems bother different people, and i believe some would want to read it anyway and some wouldn't.

as for how i pick what to rec anyway, i sort of imagine that i'm picking out stories for someone who gets all their reading in the fandom from recs. it's a question of should they read it. sometimes even if i feel that the bad flaw outweighs the brilliant part (making the story more bad than good) i'll recommend it if i think that the brilliance is important or unique enough--has something to say that people ought to hear.

Just must say I love your icon more than a human should love anything. ::Wants, wants, wants::

I recommend the flawed stories, but only on occasion, and privately; there have been several occasions in chat where I tell someone "There's this one story, and it mostly sucks, but they nail it right here in this one scene."

I'd not include the flawed bits in your Slashy Awards. I'd make a separate post for diamonds-in-the-rough or whatever you want to call them.

Also, I'm hesitant to give out advice on life, since the last person I gave advice to actually followed it, and ended up in Iraq picking up little squishy bits of a suicide bomber that had tried to kill her.

I post lists of every single fanfic I read, and mark the ones I recommend as "Recommended" or "Highly Recommended". I also post mini-reviews in which I might mention the sort of things you're discussing here... for example, I might say "OMG, this was a fantastic concept and I love this pairing, even if it could've done with a spellcheck. Recommended (but only if you don't twitch at unbeta'd fic)." I'm sure you've seen me do it. But, see, I'm not really in it for the reccing, and I say so up-front, and also warn readers that if I don't like something I will say so, so it's a bit of a different situation.

I don't rec stuff because I only read people I know (who tend to have enough other reccers out there) or off of recs (which means that by the time I read it, reccing would be superfluous).

But I think people can understand "liked, but 'ware the publish date" and/or "not the best thing ever, but there's this one section..." sort of language. Although that second one is trickier and more likely to poke sensitive spots, despite your recs being entirely your opinion. Putting them in their own category and post, as someone up above suggested, sounds like a good idea. Mixing them in with stories without "warnings" would highlight the difference more than grouping them, I think.

I think your Slashy Awards format actually allows you a lot of room to recommend these stories: every story wins one for some element it has, not for what it is as a whole, e.g. The Best Story in Any Fandom, Ever. Let people know what was worth recommending in it, then be frank about the flaws the story has, and people can read at their own discretion, knowing what they're in for. Since you obviously feel very strongly about recommending stories without reservations as a general policy, I would set these flawed stories apart in a set or sets of their own.

A cracked diamond category would be quite awesome.

For me, reccing a flawed story is a matter of if the flaws balanced against the rest of the story still make it an A/A- story for me. If I enjoy the story as it is but realize that those flaws means it's not as good as it could/should be then I won't rec it. I'm a lot more likely to rec it if it has personality, if it jumps off the page in spite of all it's flaws.

I hope that helps even if it is a very handy wavy gesture kind of definition.

If you don't want to give specific caveats, don't give caveats. Make a 'runners-up' category, or something, to follow the 'slashy awards' category, and just say, "There's a scene here that works really well" or "X is really in character" and leave the readers to make their own jokes about the stilted dialogue. Sure, people can flame you for mentioning something you dislike, but they can't really flame you for calling them 'pretty good' instead of 'fabulous'.
Erm, probably. This is fandom we're talking about.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Page 1 of 7

Poll: When Good Isn't Good Enough

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject