Poll: When Good Isn't Good Enough

[thefourthvine]

This post is friends-locked, not to exclude anyone, but because I can see how it could bite me on the butt. Once bitten, twice shy, and that goes double if it's my buttocks that are in jeopardy. (Which isn't to say no one can bite me on the butt, because, you know, some people are welcome to, but...you know what? Let's not go there. There's knowledge man was not meant to know, and there's knowledge no reasonable person wants to know.) If all goes well, I'll unlock it in a few days, because I would really like to hear from everyone on this. (Note: now no longer friends-locked!)

Now, on to the pre-poll. (Please move in an orderly fashion. No flash cameras or video allowed. Not suitable for children under three.)

How do you recommend something that's flawed? My policy has always been that if I have to put in a caveat of any kind, I won't be recommending it. (There's a practical reason for this. Actually, two. First, if I start mentioning weaknesses and strengths, it's the first step on the slippery slope to balanced perspectives, and impartiality, and thought-provoking essays, and...look, I didn't start this LJ to reprise my college English classes. I live two blocks from a college. If I wanted to write papers, I could go do it for post-graduate credit; here, I want to be idiosyncratic and personal and wildly biased. Second reason - fandom is wonderful. But it's also a bit bitey, if you see what I mean. A lot of authors view their stories as babies (boy, did I learn that one the hard way, when I was young and relatively pure), and they respond instinctively and violently to any criticism, no matter how constructive or carefully-phrased or accurate or surrounded by truthfully positive remarks. I don't need more flames, thanks.)

The no-recommending-if-it's-got-a-flaw-worth-mentioning policy has worked for more than a year. But over that year, my list of stories that I consider unrecommendable but still want to keep and re-read has grown and grown. It contains two major categories of problem stories:

• Older stories. These mostly come from older fandoms and they're written to outdated conventions. You know the kind I mean. Purple prose, and romance-novel language, and soul-searing kisses in the Rain of Nebulous Angst, and, look. I can handle all that stuff. In the presence of sufficient brilliance, I can even ignore it. But in the oldest fandoms, it was the default writing style; everything seems to have been written with Barbara Cartland firmly in mind. (Yes, there are exceptions. Many exceptions. I'm generalizing here, so stay with me.)
  
  There are other problems with the older stuff, too - for example, things that we now consider the worst kind of cliche (yes, there are good cliches; I love many of them), presented with painful sincerity. Yes, I know they weren't cliches then. It doesn't help as much as you'd hope. Or - no, never mind with the list-making, because this isn't a rant. Let me just say instead that fandom has changed a lot since Kirk and Spock were staring into each other's blazing eyes, hardly daring to hope that this one poignant gesture of agonizing, consuming, soul-burning passion could be forgiven, and I'm happy with most of those changes. But there are some good stories from those days. Some great ones, too.
  
  
• Cracked diamonds. These are unrecommendable because of a serious problem. Many of them are are visibly, noticeably, and highly regrettably unbeta'd. Others have a fucked up plot, or tin-ear dialog, or a character doing an absolutely out-of-character thing, or a writing experiment that didn't quite work. The list goes on and on. And yet, some of these stories also have elements that are sheer genius. It's not surprising. After all, these are the authors who aren't afraid to try experiments, right? Some work. Some really don't. And sometimes the working and the non-working are in the same story, unfortunately.
  
  I recently read a story that had a scene that was perfect. That scene was - OK, I think I can give some specifics without revealing too much. It was a Smallville story, and it was the Clark-finally-tells-Lex scene. (Not about the gay gay love. Lex already knows about that, or he's not as smart as he thinks he is. About the Alien Among Us thing.) And it was the best I've ever seen it done, just amazing, so perfectly written and in character and right that I wanted to weep. And then I realized that the story could never be recommended unless a good beta got ahold of it and did some very thorough work, and then I really wanted to weep. I have a lot of these stories, especially in fandoms beginning with 'S' (And has anyone ever noticed just how many fandoms do begin with 'S'? If I was making a new TV show, I'd call it Staruniverse. Maybe Super Sexy Staruniverse.) - SG1, SGA, SV, SW, and The Sentinel, which might or might not be an S-fandom.

I want to recommend these stories. Badly, in certain cases. But I have no means to do so, because my own rules prohibit recommending any story if I need to add a warning. (I do occasionally warn. But only about potentially disturbing content, or very rarely about first-level beta stuff - lots of usage mistakes, basically. Not about more serious or pervasive problems.)

So. On to the poll.



[Poll #490902]

Comments

[byob-kenobi.livejournal.com]

I answered the "other" on the reccing because I rarely rec anything, not because so few things catch my attention, but because I'm really lazy.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Let us join hands and sing the song of lazy. (Actually, there is no song of lazy, because no one on the Committee of the Undermotivated ever managed to finish one, and even if someone had, we've never managed to come up with a quorum at a meeting, so we could never have ratified it. Still, we could hum something and fake it.)

In other words, I am so totally lazy. I just also have this horrible, antisocial compulsion to force everyone to read everything I like, and this LJ is the best way to yield to that compulsion without risking permanent, state-mandated confinement.

*departs, humming just one note, 'cause it's easier*

(And good luck on your superintendent thingy tomorrow. Power to the lazy!)

[gloss]

I think something that sticks with you, that *does* have moments of sheer genius, ought to be recommended. But I get your hesitation; there are things I'm unsure of reccing publicly because I don't know how to explain why I'm reccing without giving everything away.

So maybe a separate category? Diamonds, Rough and Otherwise, or something, where you can rec what you like without the pressure of the Slashy Awards.

Also: Library school rocks, but pharmacy school would result in a higher-paying job.

The Diamond In The Rough

[norah.livejournal.com]

What would you call it?
Cracked Diamonds?
Diamonds, Rough and Otherwise?
The Smooshies?
The Smashies?
The Slushies?
"Runners Up" would be guaranteed to piss people off....
Shit Wot I Liked Okay?

I HAVE NO HEAD FOR THESE THINGS.

[nestra.livejournal.com]

If I think something has a flaw, I mention it, but I don't make a big deal out of it. I'll say something like "Has a few grammatical errors" or "A little dated" or "Sappy, but hits my buttons." I generally don't recommend something I think is hugely flawed, but if I did, I'd mention it.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

What she said.

Also, I don't rec stuff because I have no confidence in my own taste. I blame English Departments for this.

[cyanei.livejournal.com]

Babe, rec what you want to rec. This is your playground, so build that sandcastle however you want it. If a story is flawed, we can handle it. It might be cool if you could leave us a warning, so that we don't think you've gone off your nut (depending on what's wrong with the story, that is), but if you don't want to, also cool. ( :

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

First things first: where is the icon from? I have a Need to Know.

And now for the actual comment: thank you. Because I tend to forget that I started this to give me a place to play; I spend a lot more time than I should - which is not that much, but still - worrying about what people will think about what I write.

Actually, that's kind of amusing, given that a recs page is the most transparent kind of writing there is (besides certain kinds of marketing); you don't write recs so that people can read you, you write them so that people will click through and read someone else.

So I should not be writing this for other people to the exclusion of what I want to write. Thank you for reminding me of that.

[umbo.livejournal.com]

1. I am quite inconsistent about making recs--it really depends so much on my mood on my individual day.

2. I think you could make the recs under the headings of cracked diamonds or whatever, and that would work fine.

3. Dude, I feel completely incapable of giving anyone any sort of career advice right now, but I do hope whatever you choose works out great!

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

(I love the tulip, but I kind of miss your bronze face icon. I always knew immediately which icon to use in response, and it said "Shell" to me. This message has been brought to you by the Committee Against All Change.)

Dude, I feel completely incapable of giving anyone any sort of career advice right now, but I do hope whatever you choose works out great!

Well, I can sort of see why, because you're up to your knees in career-related stuff right now. But I'd still value your thoughts.

I think I still haven't stopped hoping that someday lightning would strike, and I'd just know what I was meant to do with my life. I mean, I'm good at freelance writing, and I mostly enjoy it, and I make money at it, and I'm very happy with the fringe benefits (namely, I don't have to deal with people and I can work from a hospital waiting room almost as easily as at home), but still - where's the lightning? So this poll question was likely the result of my pathetic belief that someone out there must have access to that lightning, and my way of saying that, if so, I was more than ready to be hit.

Except now I think I'm probably not, because that sounds scary and maybe not so comfortable.

And now I will stop rambling in response to your concise, relevant, and well-phrased comment. *ceases rambling; whole body immediately seizes up from the shock*

[tangleofthorns.livejournal.com]

I have often said to someone, "I read this story, it was crap, but this one scene..."

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have too, but only one-on-one. I'm not sure I could do the same in an open LJ post, you know?

[fictionbya.livejournal.com]

I don't really rec much myself, but I'll rec the flawed-but-worthy types. I'd prefer polished brilliance to rough brilliance, but I'll take what I can get.

I am in NO position to offer anyone career advice.

[shayheyred.livejournal.com]

Just must say I love your icon more than a human should love anything. ::Wants, wants, wants::

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

I think you should go ahead and recommend them. If you want to put in a caveat ("Could use work from a beta," or "back in the day before the cliche was a cliche", or something)...I tend to recommend things pretty randomly, if I felt better after reading it then it's probably okay to rec. But I'm not a perfectionist...or for that matter a very good reccer!

Oh, and I read them when they're in a fandom or genre that interests me...you're in a lot of fandoms I'm not, and some of the pairings totally don't interest me, but when you hit on something in my field, I usually do read and like them. :)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity (because I am ten pounds of curiousness in a one-pound sack), what are your fandoms/genres/pairings of interest?

*plans to re-do the fandoms poll soon*

[beledibabe.livejournal.com]

I'm not offering any advice on your personal life, because I don't know enough to speak wisely. Do what your heart tells you.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

(Query: who is that in your icon?)

The thing is, I've been waiting for my heart to speak up on this topic for a while. And so far, no luck.

Which I suppose actually means I'm more or less on the right path here. I hope that's what it means, anyway.

[mtgat]

I love the idea of a "Cracked Diamond" category.

I rarely read what you rec (sorry) because it's almost never in my fandoms, and the ones that are I've already read. But I find your commentary entertaining. :D

You could go to pharmacy school and be a good pharmacist and smile when you hand out the emergency contraception, and this would be a nice change from the other pharmacists sweeping the country. Or you could keep freelancing, or whatever works for you.

[fanofall.livejournal.com]

I LOVE your pharmacological suggestion. And perhaps she could do this radical thing where she reminds the other pharmacists that that's THEIR JOB.

Or not. I'm just sayin'. :-D

[lynnmonster.livejournal.com]

I answered "other" for reccing, because I tend to only rec stuff on impulse, not in any organized or hierarchical fashion.

Also, I do suggest that you recommend some of these flawed-in-some-way stories -- because I'd love to read them! -- but differentiate them from your awards-type recs.

Unfortunately, I don't have a brilliant solution for doing so, but if you're concerned about author reaction, perhaps you should just refer to them as stories that you have certain reservations about, or issues with, rather than flat-out stating that they're flawed. (Although I personally wouldn't care if someone described a story of mine as "flawed.")

I mean, I wouldn't even need to know *why* you have second thoughts about reccing them normally; the simple fact that you do would be enough warning for me.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, would you like to read the flawed-in-some-way stories because, you know, stories, or specifically because they're flawed (or because I think they are)? (I.e., sheer fannish voraciousness v. diagnostic type thingy. And I'm so very verbal this morning, with all the highly technical "thingy" use.)

Although I personally wouldn't care if someone described a story of mine as "flawed."

Oddly enough, I'd feel comfortable putting warnings on dS stories, and it's the only large fandom I can say that about. And I think that's because the writing quality is generally so high - like, I assume that good writers are also mature writers. Which is not necessarily the case, I guess, although it sure seems like it.

Of course, I wouldn't want to slap a caveat on dS FF that often. Your own work, for example, only ever deserves the warning of "crack fic," but, really, people who need that sort of warning are no fun. (You also just generally require the warning "God don't bring up that cracked-out Mini Evil Fraser idea around Lynn, 'cause you know she'll write it." But you're special that way.)

[shetiger.livejournal.com]

I do recommend flawed stories from time to time, and I do so with warnings of what the problem is. But I admit I'm a chicken shit--I only do this when I'm fairly certain that the author isn't on lj or doesn't move in my circles.

As far as your recommendations--I enjoy the stories you rec in the fandoms that I read. A lot of times, I just enjoy your fascinating write-ups. :)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

A lot of times, I just enjoy your fascinating write-ups. :)

Thank you!

But I admit I'm a chicken shit--I only do this when I'm fairly certain that the author isn't on lj or doesn't move in my circles.

Now that is a solution I hadn't considered. Hmmm. Of course, half the time I have no idea who is reading my LJ. But still. It's an interesting thought. :)

[norah.livejournal.com]

What do you normally do about such stories?

It depends on how small the fandom is. And what the overall feel of the fandom is. I recced a lot more OTT stuff in TPM, because it was a very OTT fandom. If you wanted to rec only modern, understated, crisp stories, you wouldn't be able to rec any K/S, practically. And in fandoms with only three or four major pieces of fiction, I believe thoroughness is far more valuable than selectiveness.

Then again, I rec with caveats. I'm not sure why nobody throws tantrums at me or flames me the way they do you, but I seem to be allowed a bit more leeway to say what I did and did not like about a story. Is cimorene111 on this filter? Because her take on this is fascinating - you know she's a high-volume reccer who gives heavy caveats, but she once told me that if she recced only stories she thought were truly great she'd only have a handful.

I would like to see you, TFV, handle these stories thusly:

I am all PMSy and schmoopy right now, but I have to say, I hate the idea of anyone being mean to you ever. All those people who flame your or complain about being recced or whatever? I HATE them. Bitches! BACK OFF MY OTP. So, I kind of want you to be safe.

On the other hand, as a voracious reader myself, I want to know what these stories are! I want to READ them, because half of them would probably not bother me nearly as much as they bother you and sometimes it's the good-despite stuff that is most memorable. It HAS to be, for us to want to hang onto it like that even though it's got XYZ problems.

I enjoy the stories you recommend.

HELL yes. They're sometimes a bit short, but that's the fault of the authors. :) And me, for being a size queen in fic as in other things.

As long as you're here, please give me some career advice.

BABIES AND LIBRARIES. Um. Anything that lets you get away from the Felon Lady. I am greedy so I want us to have kids together so we can reassure one another about our parenting neuroses and have playgroup and stuff. Um, when we come to visit. And right now I am just unhappy with what I am doing (which has some of the same drawbacks as your freelancing gig) and I want to go to library school. So I am probably projecting some. Or, a lot. *squidges OTP* How come you live so far away?

[cimness.livejournal.com]

oh, i meant to mention that in my comment below but then forgot in the middle of composing it.

how rare is the perfect story? if i wanted to include only stories that were really outstanding enough to satisfy me, that didn't have anything in them to bother me, they'd be quite few. and i don't know if i could find five stories total from all the fandoms i've read that i couldn't find a flaw in. but i think that some flaws i consider minor are major to other people, and vice-versa.

i've had several people tell me they appreciate the way i try to describe the strengths and weaknesses of the stories, that it helps them pick which ones to read. i guess by summarising that kind of thing i kind of let them choose themselves.

[shayheyred.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see these "problematic" stories handled with a recommendation, because you like them, and want others to read them, but with comments, rather than warnings, as in, "in my opinion it needed serious beta work for unnecessary misspellings that detract from the story," or "The prose may be too florid for your taste, but stick with it." You know. Subjective comments, rather than specific, rigid types of warnings: "WARNING: Purple Prose" or "BE WARNED: typos."

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. I tend to put my content warnings/WiP warnings in big flaming letters that will catch people's eyes before they click; it should be possible to write a rec that mentions problems but doesn't focus on them.

If written with enough finesse. So there's the question of whether or not I can do that; my general style is to babble about whatever pops into my mind. Finesse may not be my strong suit.

[svmadelyn.livejournal.com]

Well, since you committed me to comments with the poll, here goes:

I rec whatever I'm in the mood to rec. Sometimes I want to draw attention to an author, if not the story they just wrote. Sometimes I want to give an ego boost. Sometimes I think something was amazing, and if there's even one person on my f-list who has not read this thing mentioned *everywhere else*, why, it is my fannish duty to share this with them. I rec even if there was an issue I had with the story, and sometimes I'll say if I had one, or sometimes I won't, because you know--sometimes what hits me wrong might be another person's cup of tea and with me saying that I didn't enjoy some aspect, I don't want to send them in there with that sort of...weird bias.

I tend to think through how I rec things way more than I should, I suspect, and if I ever suspect that multiple people might appreciate a specific warning, I do that for them.

Also, I am very curious on the SV story you mentioned. Would you mind e-mailing me?

Oh, and so you don't 'die of curiosity', I just like the *way* you rec things, but no, I don't read them. My recs are...really straight-forward and rather unpretty most of the time, but I still do them because finding a SV reccer is a precious and rare thing these days, and I genuinely like doing it. *g* You make stories sound gloriously interesting, and I'm sure sometime I'll come back to them and pick a random fandom or theme and just go for it. But for now, I just like reading what you consider to be important in a rec, how you structure your reasoning.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I rec even if there was an issue I had with the story, and sometimes I'll say if I had one, or sometimes I won't, because you know--sometimes what hits me wrong might be another person's cup of tea and with me saying that I didn't enjoy some aspect, I don't want to send them in there with that sort of...weird bias.

You've definitely summed up my problem with recommending the flawed stories; I'm worried that the flaw will be the only thing people notice in the rec or in the story itself, which would sort of defeat the point.

Also, I am very curious on the SV story you mentioned. Would you mind e-mailing me?

Um. I will, if you like. But the thing is, I know you're very much the SV maven, and I'm concerned that you know the author in question - I don't know that you do, mind, just that you might.

Actually, I'd be interested in your take on the scene I liked so much. It may well have been done like that in other stories I haven't found yet. And you may not agree that it's in character or perfect; my conception of the characters is likely different than yours. So we could do a trade: you tell me what you think, I tell you why I liked what I liked. Privately, of course. Let me know if you like that idea, or if you just want the link, or what.

But for now, I just like reading what you consider to be important in a rec, how you structure your reasoning.

Wow. Thank you. That's high praise indeed.

[bear.livejournal.com]

If I'm rec'ing an older story, I usually mention that it's older and assume that people reading will draw the correct inferences about quality etc. Same goes for the stories with grammatical flaws -- usually I say something like, "some problems, but the such-and-such scene is pure brilliance."

For the purposes of recs here, though, I like the suggestion about categorizing them as "Diamonds, Rough and Otherwise" -- it seems to address your concerns while giving you flexibility to rec stories you feel are worth reading.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

First: that is an adorable icon.

I like the suggestion about categorizing them as "Diamonds, Rough and Otherwise"

Out of curiosity, would you read them if they appeared on a different page or LJ, in a different, maybe terser format? See, I'm also trying to think of some way of recommending more stories, which is tough to do in my current format. But there are so many good stories out there that I worry I won't get to many of them.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

when i recommend stories, i generally include whatever thoughts i have about how good they are, or what their flaws are, even if they're very good. sometimes i don't feel the flaw is worth mentioning. frequently i don't go into it in great detail, but i like to characterise what it is generally because different problems bother different people, and i believe some would want to read it anyway and some wouldn't.

as for how i pick what to rec anyway, i sort of imagine that i'm picking out stories for someone who gets all their reading in the fandom from recs. it's a question of should they read it. sometimes even if i feel that the bad flaw outweighs the brilliant part (making the story more bad than good) i'll recommend it if i think that the brilliance is important or unique enough--has something to say that people ought to hear.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

as for how i pick what to rec anyway, i sort of imagine that i'm picking out stories for someone who gets all their reading in the fandom from recs.

Oooo. Very interesting, the concept of having a specific audience in mind. I like it a lot, and I'm going to have to think about this more. I've always written this LJ for my own entertainment, and I have no idea who my imaginary audience is. (I know who my real audience is. More or less. But who you write to is different than who you write for.) This is clearly one way to answer this question - do what you've done, and figure out who my Platonic audience is, then figure out what that person would want.

Thank you. Gripping.

[spubba.livejournal.com]

I recommend the flawed stories, but only on occasion, and privately; there have been several occasions in chat where I tell someone "There's this one story, and it mostly sucks, but they nail it right here in this one scene."

I'd not include the flawed bits in your Slashy Awards. I'd make a separate post for diamonds-in-the-rough or whatever you want to call them.

Also, I'm hesitant to give out advice on life, since the last person I gave advice to actually followed it, and ended up in Iraq picking up little squishy bits of a suicide bomber that had tried to kill her.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to imagine the worst-case scenario for following your advice in this situation, and I'm thinking it probably can't end up with suicide bombers.

I hope.

Because I suspect this is what I will end up doing, more or less; I don't want to put all the doubtful recs into this format, not when it takes so much time to write up each summary, and when I'm so far behind in terms of stories recommended:stories to be recommended. So I'll probably have to find some way to differentiate, to rec the flawed ones, if I do at all, in another location or format or both.

(And I have to ask, but you don't, of course, have to answer: how did she end up in Iraq? What was your advice that got her there?)

[damned-colonial.livejournal.com]

I post lists of every single fanfic I read, and mark the ones I recommend as "Recommended" or "Highly Recommended". I also post mini-reviews in which I might mention the sort of things you're discussing here... for example, I might say "OMG, this was a fantastic concept and I love this pairing, even if it could've done with a spellcheck. Recommended (but only if you don't twitch at unbeta'd fic)." I'm sure you've seen me do it. But, see, I'm not really in it for the reccing, and I say so up-front, and also warn readers that if I don't like something I will say so, so it's a bit of a different situation.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

It's a really helpful feature. I've considered doing something like this at del.icio.us; setting up a complete reading list. Thing is, it would take forever to back-load the, you know, thousands of stories I have in the database, and it would add another step to the storing-the-story process. But I've really liked the way some other peopel use del.icio.us, so...

Huh.

In any case: I very much like the way you do your reading list, even if I can't figure out a similar strategy that would work for me. (And I'm irritated at how long it took me to notice you were doing that, given that you're on my base friends list, the basic one that I read daily. How did I miss this for the time that I did? Because I only found it relatively recently.)

[elishavah.livejournal.com]

I don't rec stuff because I only read people I know (who tend to have enough other reccers out there) or off of recs (which means that by the time I read it, reccing would be superfluous).

But I think people can understand "liked, but 'ware the publish date" and/or "not the best thing ever, but there's this one section..." sort of language. Although that second one is trickier and more likely to poke sensitive spots, despite your recs being entirely your opinion. Putting them in their own category and post, as someone up above suggested, sounds like a good idea. Mixing them in with stories without "warnings" would highlight the difference more than grouping them, I think.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I don't rec stuff because I only read people I know (who tend to have enough other reccers out there) or off of recs (which means that by the time I read it, reccing would be superfluous).

Not that I'm saying you have to rec, but this isn't actually true. Every LJer has a slightly different audience, which means that recommending something you've seen elsewhere can actually be useful. I'm always surprised by the stories that get a "Wow, I'd never seen that one before!"

Mixing them in with stories without "warnings" would highlight the difference more than grouping them, I think.

I agree; I think a story that is, for example, un-beta'd would look worse in a set with three other incredible stories than in a set with others that also have great spots and bruises, so to speak.

If I offered recs in a different format - shorter summaries, different location, whatever - would they be useful to you? (Assuming, of course, that they're currently useful to you, which I don't know that they are. I only look at the aggregate data for my polls (except fill-in-the-blanks questions), so I don't know specific answers to questions unless someone tells me what she put.)

[walkingshadow.livejournal.com]

I think your Slashy Awards format actually allows you a lot of room to recommend these stories: every story wins one for some element it has, not for what it is as a whole, e.g. The Best Story in Any Fandom, Ever. Let people know what was worth recommending in it, then be frank about the flaws the story has, and people can read at their own discretion, knowing what they're in for. Since you obviously feel very strongly about recommending stories without reservations as a general policy, I would set these flawed stories apart in a set or sets of their own.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Since you obviously feel very strongly about recommending stories without reservations as a general policy, I would set these flawed stories apart in a set or sets of their own.

Yeah. I tend to...when I first started in fandom, I relied on recs sites and journals a lot. (This was after I discovered that just toodling over to the major archives and reading at random is a good way to burn the sight from your eyes forever OMG. Ah, the joys of the Fandom Learning Curve.) And I didn't love that some sites would put a story full of usage errors, so full of them that reading was painful, next to a beautiful, carefully-edited story honed and polished to perfection.

I guess, for me, the critical thing for recommending a story is that I have to love it. For whatever reason - good, bad, some small thing, the intricte gorgeousness of it, anything. But I have to love it, and I don't think I could put stories I don't love here with no differentiation at all.

(Although you're quite correct that the format would lend itself to such stories, even though that wasn't my original intention. I did it that way so I didn't have to get into the "five best dS fics" and "my desert island FF in order of preference, with precise gradations between each" type lists. I love them. They're all winners, as far as I'm concerned, so it would be really hard to sort them further in terms of X is better than Y which is greater than or equal to Z and so on.)

[rosaleendhu.livejournal.com]

A cracked diamond category would be quite awesome.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, more or less awesome than other categories? I mean, is there an inherent appeal to the concept of cracked diamonds beyond the appeal of just plain ol' good FF?

[annavtree.livejournal.com]

For me, reccing a flawed story is a matter of if the flaws balanced against the rest of the story still make it an A/A- story for me. If I enjoy the story as it is but realize that those flaws means it's not as good as it could/should be then I won't rec it. I'm a lot more likely to rec it if it has personality, if it jumps off the page in spite of all it's flaws.

I hope that helps even if it is a very handy wavy gesture kind of definition.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I'm a lot more likely to rec it if it has personality, if it jumps off the page in spite of all it's flaws.

I see that, and that works; I like recs pages that go with that. But at this point, my practice for a long time has been that the personality (or whatever, but I agree personality is a major aspect of what makes or breaks a story for me) has to make me forget the flaws. Which is sort of the same thing you said - balancing the flaws v. the strengths and attractions, which is one of the, like, four basic tasks of a recommender. My balance point is just pretty far up the scale.

At least here.

I hope that helps even if it is a very handy wavy gesture kind of definition.

Yes, it did, and thank you. Until I read your comment I hadn't thought about it in those terms - that it's a question of what kind of balance you need, like if you need the good side to crash down because it so outweighs the bad, or if you just need a good big chunk in the good side compared to the bad, or what. Or maybe an x/y graph would be a better analogy - where you draw the line in terms of the intersection of flaws and strengths.

In any case, very interesting. Hmmm. More thought needed.

[truestories.livejournal.com]

If you don't want to give specific caveats, don't give caveats. Make a 'runners-up' category, or something, to follow the 'slashy awards' category, and just say, "There's a scene here that works really well" or "X is really in character" and leave the readers to make their own jokes about the stilted dialogue. Sure, people can flame you for mentioning something you dislike, but they can't really flame you for calling them 'pretty good' instead of 'fabulous'.
Erm, probably. This is fandom we're talking about.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Sure, people can flame you for mentioning something you dislike, but they can't really flame you for calling them 'pretty good' instead of 'fabulous'.
Erm, probably. This is fandom we're talking about.

Yup. Because, honestly? I've been flamed for calling something fabulous. Which argues that I should just ignore the flames, but even though I mostly do, I don't want to do something that increases the number I get a hundred fold, because that way lies frustration and stopping or switching to friends-only, and I don't want to do those things.

And, also, I think it's really easy to hurt an author's feelings, especially some of the newer and less-confident authors we have in fandom; sometimes they seem to see only the one word in the rec that could be construed in a mildly negative fashion. Most authors have a thicker skin than that, but there's a select few that don't seem to have a skin at all.

Which is why I tend to think about things really carefully before I do them; not because I want to avoid hurting anyone - it's impossible - as that I want to be ready for the inevitable negative response. ('Cause there will be one. To anything. It's a Fandom Law. And it's better to be prepared. That's a Fraser Law.)

[ficbyzee.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think whether or not you think a fic is utterly perfect or really flawed or whatever, there's always a 50/50 chance that the reader might not like it. There are a lot of fics that have come highly recc'ed by people that I trust, and that I can tell are well-written, but that just... don't do it for me. On the other hand, there are a lot of fics that are kind of shoddy in places but totally make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and a lot of the time those are the fics I read when I need Comfort Fic.

So I say, rec 'em. Maybe warn if the thing needs a good beta or if the writer makes some truly odd storytelling decisions, but other than that, go ahead. :)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think whether or not you think a fic is utterly perfect or really flawed or whatever, there's always a 50/50 chance that the reader might not like it. There are a lot of fics that have come highly recc'ed by people that I trust, and that I can tell are well-written, but that just... don't do it for me. On the other hand, there are a lot of fics that are kind of shoddy in places but totally make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and a lot of the time those are the fics I read when I need Comfort Fic.

So true. Even people who I know have very similar tastes to mine will react differently to individual stories; a 'good, but does nothing for me' when I'm saying, 'holy shit wow wow wow,' or vice-versa.

I'm more trying to establish a baseline here. I can't make every reader have a wow-wow-wow experience with a story; I can't even make any single reader do that all the time. It's more - I want people to know that, at any rate, the mechanics will be good, or the story will be worth reading, things like that.