Poll: Form and Function

[thefourthvine]

So, I've finished tagging all my entries. Notice my index posts that allow all of you, including anonymous users, access to all my tags.

Notice that they look fucking awful. And the print is tiny, so I'm not even sure anyone will use them. Plus, I seriously do not want these to be the top entries in my journal for however long it takes LJ to put a "Tags" link on the info page; looking at them depresses me, and I'm probably the only person who actually looks at my journal regularly outside of a friends list.

But, on the other hand, I did tag all those posts. I have no idea what the point was if I can't find a way to let everyone use them to search by fandom and theme. So this poll is asking, basically, for you to identify the lesser of the evils, because they all look fairly evil to me at this point.

And while you're here, could you weigh in on other appearance aspects of this journal? I mean, if I'm going to pitch a major wobbler over the hideousness of my index posts, surely I could also spare some time to worry about the fact that my journal is, well, pretty darned hideous? And that it may also make other people's friends lists hideous?

I mean, OK, I'm going to spare that time anyway, so I guess what I really want is for you to spare enough time to form an opinion. I would greatly appreciate it.

But mostly, please god someone tell me what to do about this whole tags issue, because - the horror. The horror. My dogs are averting their eyes from the screen, here. Dust mites are scoffing at my primitive grasp of website design. It's all very very bad and wrong. Help meeeeeee.

[Poll #518389]

Comments

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I wish your comments page was the default LJ comments page instead of your LJ style. Mostly I use ?style=mine, which gets me there, so it doesn't matter much, but like right now? I've got your style (which is by no means awful - at least the comment box is white and the text I'm typing is black).

But you did ask.

Also, you should rec more Ocean's 11 fic. *g*

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

See...I had no idea it was even doing that. I went through the laying-out-your-LJ process once, shortly after I created this, when I was still a free user. And then I never did anything to it again, on the possibly-correct grounds that I am so unskilled at design that any changes I made would only make things worse.

But, see, back then I didn't understand what most of the choices would mean in terms of every day use.

And, wow. There are many options in there that I totally do not remember even seeing, let alone choosing. Although I suppose it's relevant that virtually all of them are set to "default." Exploration of layout styles is in my future, I'm thinking.

I believe, however, that I have fixed this specific annoyance. Possibly. Let me know if that doesn't do it, because, seriously, I feel like I'm looking at the entire "Customize" area for the first time, and so it will take at least thirty minutes of giddily experimental clicking before I really come to grips with it all.

[shayheyred.livejournal.com]

Tag? What? Where?
::oblivious::

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

*points*

Down yonder, just below this post, if you click over to my LJ. I deliberately forced this entry to appear ahead of everything, so that it would be on top; that will change, very soon. Basically, as soon as I make a decision about the sheer hideousness that is currently infesting my journal.

[wistfuljane.livejournal.com]

Have you considered changing your layout and adding your tags links to the sidebar? If you changed your styles to s2 Component or Flexible Square, there are codes to add additional sidebars if you go over the 30 links limit - which you will considering all the theme lists and fandoms. And I could help you with adding those codes, if you like.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I have changed my layout to Flexible Squares; I seriously love what I have, as I like things simple simple simple. But it looks like hell in my laptop, so I'm easily swayed by tempting promises of links that will be prettier than my current tagging horror.

And I would love some help with this, yes. Love it.

[dramaturgca.livejournal.com]

I'd totally help you do a new layout, I'm very layout jazzed at the moment.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

At this point, I'm just trying to get my tags at the top, or at any rate somewhat separated from my post, and my links list on the sidebar long enough. But since it took me roughly 4 hours of color blending and experimentation to get the current color configuration, well, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a look at it and just...see if it looks all right. Because I seriously would not know, and at this point I think I could've ended up with neon orange and neon green and still gone with it, just because I couldn't stand any more color modification.

Basically: suggestions? Hints? Comments? I clearly need a lot.

*weeps for lost simplicity and cleanliness of old style*

[out-there.livejournal.com]

My comment about your layout is pretty much, "Eh. Whatever makes you happy."

I tend to look at your posts on my FList (which is the most basic of basic black-text-on-white-background-layout) but when I do look at your LJ, I like the soothing colour scheme.

As for the tags, they don't appear too ugly to me (but my screen's on 600x800 resolution, so that might be part of it). And I've just skimmed through your old SN recs, which has proved that the fandom-based tags are a godsend.

(I get in the mood for a certain fandom, and the only minor complaint I used to have about your recs was that despite the great summaries and the funny, I couldn't just pick a fandom and find a bunch of recs for it. But now I can!)

If it really drives you nuts, maybe you could just put one short entry at the top of your LJ, and link to the lists of tags. That'd work well.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

(I get in the mood for a certain fandom, and the only minor complaint I used to have about your recs was that despite the great summaries and the funny, I couldn't just pick a fandom and find a bunch of recs for it. But now I can!)

See, yes, exactly. The memories feature drove me insane, because with a five-tag limit, I couldn't possibly tag by fandom, and I need to be able to search by fandom even more than most users. (This would not be a problem if I was absolutely consistent with updating and maintaining my recs database. But...well, it is a problem. Yeah. Moving on.)

So, despite the ugliness of the tags, and the fact that I have had to change my layout to try to make good use of the tags, still, I love the tags. Not unconditionally, mind you, but there's definitely love in there.

[hjcallipygian.livejournal.com]

Er... I totally had a brilliant solution to your problem if you didn't have approximately two hundred million bazillion different tags, which I did not realize was the case until after filling out the poll. So ignore my brilliant solution answer -- I say just wait until they have a better tag listing function.

What I'm also hoping is that they'll have a combined-tag function in the future, so you can look for stuff that is tagged, say, both food-fetish and Ocean's-11 -- so you only get Rusty Eating Candy fic, or whatever. Know what I mean?

And, just to give you an idea of how much of a dork I am... I have already figured out how to accomplish this programming-wise in my head.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

if you didn't have approximately two hundred million bazillion different tags

It's the curse of my multi-fandom nature. My LJ contains *multitudes*. Of fandoms, anyway.

However, thanks to wistfuljane, I have evaded LJ's discrimination against the aggressively polytagged. My link list is the stuff of legend. Or, OK, broken scroll wheels, but I like it.

And, just to give you an idea of how much of a dork I am... I have already figured out how to accomplish this programming-wise in my head.

Oooo. Oh, please please please go work for LJ immediately. Because that...that would be shiny beyond anything.

*is dazed by sudden vision of LJian utopia*

[eliade.livejournal.com]

Not sure my answer to #1 is relevant. I couldn't figure out what you meant by "tag index." I do see that tags on the top of posts are kind of messy. Eh. I actually haven't figured out the point of tags yet at all, to be honest. I haven't been paying attention. But your LJ is grand. Also, memories work fine for finding things, yes? I'm all confused and probably confusing. Ignore me!

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Ignore all that tag-index babble; it was the raving of a woman driven to the brink. (Actually, the index posts do exist, but because of their basic hideousness, they now hide in shame under a private label - the only filtered posts I have in my whole journal, amusingly enough.)

I actually haven't figured out the point of tags yet at all, to be honest. I haven't been paying attention. But your LJ is grand. Also, memories work fine for finding things, yes?

Memories work fine for finding most things. But they never worked for indexing my journal. Because, see, you're limited to a mere five tags per entry in memories, and even if I just categorized by fandom, I'd still be over the limit in about 15% of my posts. But tags...now, tags are unlimited. You can create one for every word in the English language and append them all to every single post, assuming pretty much infinite time, a sub-atomic boredom threshold, and some minimal programming skills.

What this means: at long last, I can index by fandom! My glee knows no bounds, because I am just a really, really big dork.

And better still, thanks to wistfuljane, I no longer need the nasty horrible fat hobbit - I mean, index posts. Because I have a sidebar. A sidebar that, with some prodding, was forced to surrender its pretense that there was a link limit. And so I can put my fandom index right over to the side of my posts!

Oh, there is much rejoicing about this, I tell you. OK. Only by me, and right now it's tempered by my pathological abhorrence of change, but - oooo! Index!

Ignore me!

Won't. But I will tell you an amusing story about your icon, which is that I just recently realized that's not a picture of you. See, it's a fairly androgynous photo - in fact, since you can't see the lower part of his face, it's sort of natural to assume he's a very pretty girl with very short hair. At least, it's natural to me.

But then I beheld all of your userpics and noticed the keyword "Elijah." And I experienced a belated epiphany.

This happens to me a lot, actually.

[neonnurse.livejournal.com]

About the layout and all else I say, Whatever makes you happy, dear. :)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And I am much, much happier with the hideous index posts replaced by a sleek and shining sidebar. I have a sidebar index now, and I am a better woman for it.

[manasseh.livejournal.com]

If it makes you feel any better, I just used your tags to find and read a ton of Master & Commander fic.

...Okay, that really only made me feel better. Still, the tags are not completely evil, just ugly. But, to echo the above comment, do what makes you happy.

[artyartie.livejournal.com]

Hee! I wasn't the only one who did that last night!

[auburnnothenna.livejournal.com]

I am pointedly ignoring the existence of tags. But really, that isn't half as hideous as some of the customized journal layouts I see. I say, do what you like.

But, you know, simple and soothing colors are better.

Yeah, yeah, lot of help that is. You can wallpaper it with dayglo neon sunflowers and I'll still read your recs.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Hee. I dislike many of the customized journals I see, too; I think of them as Migraine Journals. But I tried to make mine not aggressive. Simple. Soothing. I think it meets these goals. If you get a chance, let me know whether you agree.

Also, I now have a sidebar index, which is just as shiny as can be. I too was initially inclined to give tags the cold shoulder, but then I realized that I could index by fandom, and it was all over but the slavish fawning and the quickie marriage in Las Vegas.

[chrismm.livejournal.com]

(wandering in from friendsfriends, avoiding housework)

You can make URL shortcuts for each tag, and put them as Links over on the sidebar:

http:\\www.livejournal.com\users\chrismm\tag\graphics

is the real URL. Prettier link like so:

Graphics Posts (http://www.livejournal.com/users/chrismm/tag/graphics)

It's still a little unwieldy, and you'd have to add Links as you add tags, but it's prettier and easier to understand.

[chrismm.livejournal.com]

Of course, now that I look closer, and realize that you have 3,293,003 different tags, um, my solution is prettier, but a hell of a lot of work. So maybe not...

[apatheia-jane.livejournal.com]

the more links I click at work, the more will show up on history, which I can't delete.

Therefore, no cut-tags. Makes it easier for me to skim thru at work & then seek out the places I want to go later.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

That is the best cut-tag-related argument I've heard yet. Although it's kind of sad - for you, I mean - that it boils down to "Big Brother Is Watching You." Where do you work, the Ministry of Truth?

And in all honesty, I will likely continue to cut tag Fandoms I Have Loved (length) and rants posts (because, shocking though it may be, some people would prefer not to hear a lot of random vituperation). But those are so rare that it shouldn't have much effect on you, or so I'm hoping. And I won't be cut tagging anything else, I don't think. We must all work together to defeat Big Brother.

[cupidsbow.livejournal.com]

Obey me. I have a brilliant solution to this problem, which I will relate to you in the comments so that you may worship me as I deserve.

Put links to the Tag entries on your User Info page. You could combine this with one entry of links at the top of your LJ. Or you could just create a sidebar/header with links (see the FAQ on overrides, there's a tutorial too (http://www.livejournal.com/users/howto/4516.html)). That way the info will be easy to find, but not take up huge gobbits of space at the top of your LJ.

I have no problem with the length of your posts, but then I don't usually read you on my flist, I come and actually look at your LJ. Cutting polls or other oddities would probably be polite, as they aren't your primary thing, and people may or may not be interested. I quite like having the rant at the top and then a cut, so I can decide if I'm interested or not. But, really, you're entertaining and I don't mind one way or the other.

As for layout. A change is always nice, and I can understand why you want one, but really? It's all good. I don't come to your journal for eye candy. I come for the text :)

[cupidsbow.livejournal.com]

And, I should probably have said that I haven't actually played with Tags yet, so the advice is all based on previous stuff I've played with, and could possibly be incompatible with Tags.

[flambeau.livejournal.com]

Psst, you forgot to reset the date on this post, so your tags aren't on top in your lj. You're still living in the future. ;)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Whoops. Yeah, I experienced two giant morale flops and had to go hide for a while (first from change, then from the absolute evil that is arbitrary links list limiting), so I totally forgot to fix the date weirdness. (It was all weirdness last night.) But now my tags index posts are hiding in the distant past, my fandom index is living on my sidebar, and life is good.

*is fulfilled*

*is vaguely worried that LJ can bring such fulfillment*

*is stubbornly fulfilled anyway*

Yay!

[cimness.livejournal.com]

why not link the different tags in the link list that's built into s2, or in your userinfo?

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

As it turns out, that's pretty much what I ended up doing. (If you do this, note that you can't actually use the link list, because it tops out at thirty, which is a mere bagatelle to the truly multi-fandomed. But wistfuljane taught me a workaround that is a thing of beauty and a joy forever.)

The index posts are gone, repressed, forgotten. The new era dawns today, and it is filled with sidebars and love.

obey me:

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

LINKS LIST. i'm just sayin'.

as for cut-tagging and changing your layout, do what makes you happy, you know? i merely suggest the links list above because it's so clear you're not happy with the tag situation as it is now.

Re: obey me:

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Right you are. The links list proved to be the right solution, although I did have to dodge around the thirty-link limit. (Sheer LJ injustice, that limit.) And my new sidebar is making me wildly happy, whereas, as you observed, the index posts made me a suitable case for treatment.

Yay sidebars!

(And I did have to change my layout to do the sidebar thing, but it was so worth it. And I say this despite my pathological loathing of change, which is downright legendary in some circles.)

[dzurlady.livejournal.com]

Obey me. I have a brilliant solution to this problem, which I will relate to you in the comments so that you may worship me as I deserve.
Well, I don't know about brilliant, but if you don't want the tags entries at the top of your post you could combine them all in one post/put together links to all your tags entries in one post, and then just put a link to that post as your personal website (labelled as something like 'Search recs by tags' or something). It would therefore always show on your journal front page and wouldn't clutter up the top of your journal, if it's bugging you. I don't really mind it, but I don't look at your journal as much as you must.
(Don't know if you know how to do this - if you don't:
To put a link in your journal as your personal website, go here (http://www.livejournal.com/editinfo.bml) and enter the post url where it says 'webpage url' and then whatever you want to call it where it says 'webpage name'. It will then automatically show up in your journal.)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Actually, that is a very interesting idea. Because my original plan was to put the whole massive tag-link-fest on the info page, as that's where I go when I want to search someone's LJ. But I know I'm in the minority on that, and it turned out that it would've made my info page the same length as The Complete Works of Tolstoy, so I gave up.

And now I have a sidebar. Which I can't easily link to. But...if I took the index posts off the private setting, moved them way back in time, and put a link to them on the info page, as you suggested - well, that could work rather well.

Must reflect on this further. After I finish making my LJ suitable for human habitation, that is.

Thank you!

[flyingtapes.livejournal.com]

I actually quite like the new layout, and I appreciate the tags off to the side. So I'm cool with everything here. Though I noticed there was no poll button for that. :)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

Yay! Cool! And thank you!

(There was no poll button for "I'm good with it as it is" because I couldn't imagine anyone being good with it as it was. You apparently missed the mercifully brief but seriously hideous Index Posts in Generator era, which is best forgotten, and came in at the beginning of the Flexible Squares Stoops to Conquer era. So I'm very glad to hear you like the sidebar tag links and the new layout in general. I'm not the world's biggest fan of change, so I'm still vaguely hesitant about all this, and the positive feedback is really helping.)

[elishavah.livejournal.com]

You're probably tired of getting suggestions by now. I do like how you're setting it up with the tags as links on the sidebar. Much cleaner than the index posts. (I gather you gave up and went to bed mid-way through "H". *g*)

Another thought, though... I don't know about anyone else, but one of the things that's been driving me nuts about how tags are displayed is that the tag is smack up against the end of the entry on most styles (i.e., there's no line break between the tag and the last line of the entry). Forcing a line break is a very simple thing to change in the code that I could show you if you want.

In the end, it's your journal, so whatever looks good to you is good.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

(I gather you gave up and went to bed mid-way through "H". *g*)

Well, kind of. I don't handle change well, so I actually hid in bed somewhere around D - I'd done enough to see that it was going to work, and look nice, and that I was therefore going to have to change. But I got up again a few hours later and bravely addressed the list once more. What happened at H was that I hit the link limit. But thanks to wistfuljane, I am no longer subject to mere link limits. Behold the sheer usefulness of my sidebar!

I don't know about anyone else, but one of the things that's been driving me nuts about how tags are displayed is that the tag is smack up against the end of the entry on most styles (i.e., there's no line break between the tag and the last line of the entry). Forcing a line break is a very simple thing to change in the code that I could show you if you want.

Yes! Show me! Please! Because that's been driving me nuts, too. Now that I have created the Magic Sidebar of Doom, the only thing really bothering me about my journal is the way the tags seem to be stalking my entries.

[lorem_ipsum]

1st question: I picked option 2, but I don't care that much. Yes, ugly, but I almost never go to your Recent Entries page; that's why I have your journal friended. And "In time, LJ will provide", yes I certainly hope so.

2nd question: I don't care. I always read your entries all the way through, and then usually I open them in a new window and start opening the rec'd story links in new tabs (Firefox, yay). If you cut away, I'll just open the new window *before* reading your post.

3rd question: Your font is too small. I use a laptop, and I'm, like, blind. So I have Firefox tricked out with a minimum font size of 14pt, and I still use Ctrl+ a lot to increase the font. Unfortunately, I suspect this is a basic problem with how most of the styles have been designed. IMO they ought to leave font size alone so that the user's settings won't be overridden.

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

And "In time, LJ will provide", yes I certainly hope so.

They'd better. Although the great thing about LJ is that even if they don't, some user will probably come up with a way.

Your font is too small. I use a laptop, and I'm, like, blind. So I have Firefox tricked out with a minimum font size of 14pt, and I still use Ctrl+ a lot to increase the font. Unfortunately, I suspect this is a basic problem with how most of the styles have been designed. IMO they ought to leave font size alone so that the user's settings won't be overridden.

You are entirely right. The default font size in pretty much all S2 layouts is somewhat bitty on high-resolution screens. Unfortunately, although I can make it bigger, I can't make it big enough without messing up the way the layout displays. I have no idea why it's set up like this, although I suspect form over function had some kind of play here, unless the people who did all these styles use incredibly low resolution. Thank god for Firefox. (Or Opera, in my case, as I have issues with a few of Firefox's core features.)

[qe2.livejournal.com]

For #2, I'd've chosen option [n] ("No. Why bother? Everyone who keeps you on their filter knows you're wordy. And they know how to defriend if they get sick of it."), except that somehow "wordy" struck me as an insult and so generally inapplicable to you/your writing.

As to #3: I am not a graphic designer by any stretch of the imagination, but I have some rudimentary coding skills and if I can help, I'll help - not because I think you need a new layout, but because I think you think so, which means a new layout you liked would make you happier, and that's a good thing.

/runon

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I own my wordiness. It's either that, which at any rate is my voice, or a very bad imitation of Hemingway. (And this may be blasphemous, but I don't think Hemingway's style was anything to rejoice about.) So, not an insult per se, although I can see why you'd maybe not be in love with the phrasing there.

Now that I think about it, I probably I should've expected to end up this way after my violent allergic reaction to The Old Man in the Sea in middle school.

And, thank you. My profound loathing of change was standing between me and a new layout that is, yes, making me much happier, even though I'm still in the prodding and tweaking and why won't it compile stage. I've spent a lot of the last day just admiring my shiny, shiny sidebar at the expense of actual productivity, and when I'm doing that even while I'm still coding the damned thing, well, it's a sign.

Behold the shiny! (And feel free to make critical remarks now - I'd like to get them all in while I'm still tweaking, because past experience suggests that once it's set, it's set. See: change, resistance to.)

*goes off to gaze at the shiny some more*

[fanofall.livejournal.com]

OMG you have such personal anger!

I have not responded to any of your little radio buttons from hell because I don't like any of your possible answers, so I will respond here.

WRT tags index post: I don't like it, but I'm not sure you have any options at this point. Perhaps you could cut-tag just the index post?

WRT cut tags: I like being able to read the whole thing without clicking, plus, it's funny. And I don't mentally skip "okay, short post" right over the funny, and move on to the next fangirl!squee thing. Pls to leave it long thx.

WRT layout: I like the new powder blue thing, but I know how you feel about dark text/light background and the contrast required therefor. The old one was fine, esp. for people who are insistent about dark text/light background (I refer to NO ONE in particular), but I always felt as though it was a little jarring. Meanwhile, the lighter blue one is ... pretty. And happy-making. But it's your journal (I mean, really, can I talk? Mine is BROWN AND PURPLE. And I like it.)

[thefourthvine.livejournal.com]

I did indeed have personal anger. A lot of it, as it turned out when I re-read my poll post in a somewhat calmer state of mind. I don't do so well when threatened with change, which, yes, I knew that, but it must've been especially bad the night I posted this, because - whoa.

And I like the phrase "radio buttons from hell." This will be the secret name of all my polls from now on. Down with friendly flexible ticky boxes! Up with the Radio Button from Hell Regime! (Only, really, not. Or...not exactly, anyway.)

Pls to leave it long thx.

Your wish is my command, or rather, it would be even if I hadn't heard a lot of negativity about the possibility of cut-tags. Which I did. And, hey, I surely did not want to use them, so yay. Down with cut tags, too!

I like the new powder blue thing, but I know how you feel about dark text/light background and the contrast required therefor. The old one was fine, esp. for people who are insistent about dark text/light background (I refer to NO ONE in particular), but I always felt as though it was a little jarring. Meanwhile, the lighter blue one is ... pretty. And happy-making. But it's your journal (I mean, really, can I talk? Mine is BROWN AND PURPLE. And I like it.)

Huh. When you get a chance, which I fully understand that you will not have this weekend, could you take a look at the new layout and then tell me what colors you're seeing? Because we are obviously not seeing the same colors. To me, your layout is orange and lavender on the laptop, and grey, lavender, and very, very orange on the desktop. Definitely not brown.

I always expect some color variation on these things, and I always wonder if I'm accidentally making something invisible to someone else. (I mean, I know a lot of people who have done just that with their layouts. The world of millions of colors is a beautiful one, yes, but also slightly dicey.) This perhaps can now be answered, at least in part.

Probably Too Late

[murklins.livejournal.com]

I keep a multi-fandom journal that does nothing but track WiPs. I like the idea of tags, and I intend to abuse them utterly. I want my tags to be grouped, and I want them to display in the sidebar as links. To that end I've started coding a layout based on Flexible Squares that includes a Tags sidebar box. This box displays a tiered list of tags. To see what I mean, go to my testing journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/murklinstest/

To group tags, you use a delimiter (currently hard coded to a colon) when naming your tags. Examples:

fandom:smallville
fandom:sports night
fandom:ocean's 11
category:time travel
category:body-swap

Then all the fandom tags are grouped together, and all the category tags are grouped together. Any time you add a new tag, the Tags box is updated automatically. You can have more than just 2 levels of tags (i.e.: category:time travel:backwards, category:time travel:forwards).

This is all super preliminary, and the code is nowhere near ready for prime-time. But if you're interested I can keep you posted on my progress.

Re: Probably Too Late

[wistfuljane.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, I really like this idea. I've seen ones used by kunzite1 (at s2layers for Opal and at his journal for Component) and one I think that add tags list to the calendar, but they're not nearly as organized as yours. Please post this code to s2flexibles when the code is ready! Will this be workable for other layouts too?