thefourthvine: Two people fucking, rearview: sex is the universal fandom. (Default)
Keep Hoping Machine Running ([personal profile] thefourthvine) wrote2006-06-18 12:57 am
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Anime Vids for Media Fans

(Note: this was going to be a contribution to an UnCon vidshow, but it got out of hand. Badly out of hand. So I figured I'd post it here and spare all the virtual con-goers a lot of scrolling.)

Anime vids are wonderful. And they are totally worth watching even if you don't watch anime.

For one thing, they're very, very pretty. I tend to think of them as the way live-action vids will look in a few years. (Anime is easier to work with, and especially to do effects on, than live-action source. I think. I mean, Jesus, don't take my word for it, since all forms of vidding look equally - i.e., infinitely - difficult to me. If you want actual facts, though, I'm guessing you'll be reading another LJ, or at any rate another post. This post will not be fact-intensive.)

For another, they are surprisingly accessible to the non-anime watcher. When we started watching anime vids, Best Beloved (my unindicted co-conspirator in all vid watching; I need a co-conspirator because I am, basically, very very slow on the uptake) and I had not seen any anime at all. And, sure, we had some conversations like:

Me: Um. How many characters are there in this vid?

BB: Four? There's, let's see. Purple hair guy, blue hair guy, green hair guy, and blond hair guy. Four.

Me: Those are guys?

BB: Only their doctors know for sure.

[There is a pause.]

BB: Well, and the character that's feeling the other character up right now probably knows, too. Or maybe he just isn't very picky.

[There is another pause as we watch two people with fabulous hair make out while flying through air filled with cherry blossoms.]

Me: My god, this is like watching a documentary about salt water fish. They're very pretty and very colorful and completely mystifying.

But we also watched a lot of vids in stunned, awed silence. In many cases, we understood what was going on perfectly - making out while flying through air filled with cherry blossoms is pretty much a universal experience, after all. Sometimes, we were just hypnotized by the pretty. And eventually we acquired a basic understand of anime themes and tropes:

[We watch Girl A shoot Girl B.]

Me: So now they're gonna kiss, right?

[We watch Girl A kiss Girl B.]

BB: I guess some things really are universal.

And:

Me: Hey, look! It's a Gunfighter Who Walks Alone!

BB, nodding appreciatively: He walks a lonely road. It's only him and he walks alone.

Me: ...Except for that girl right there in the sailor outfit.

BB: And the three talking yellow circles with beaks and triangle feet.

In short, we began to trust anime vidders and love anime vids. (Not to mention the actual anime itself, which turns out to be a) good and b) fun. Or so Best Beloved tells me; since the last disc of Trigun, I've stuck to just the vids.)

And if I can understand anime vids, anyone can. Even the salt water fish would have decent odds. So. Give me a chance to persuade you, okay?

First - and LJ-cut for those of you who already know it - I present two guides for any beginners out there.

Things It Would've Been Really Useful to Know Before I Started Watching Anime Vids

  1. Boobs are key. If a character has boobs, she's female. If a character doesn't have boobs, no matter how pretty or androgynous he is, he's probably male. If two people are kissing and you'd like to know what sex they are, count boobs. Four boobs? It's a lesbian kiss. No boobs? It's a gay kiss. Eleven boobs? Send me the link.

  2. It's just a frame. It doesn't mean what you think. Because, see, in live-action vids, if it's on the screen, it happened. Maybe in the canon, maybe in the Super Extended Ultra Slashy Edition, maybe in the outtakes, but it happened somewhere.

    In anime, well, not so much. Anime vidders can use effects to make characters from different canons talk to each other. They can remove key elements from scenes, like other characters. They can add key elements to scenes, like someone doing something very obscene with her tongue. They can - and will - make the characters lip sync to the music. (Yes, it looks weird to someone who is used to watching live-action vids. At the beginning, it threw me right out of the vid, because, really - what are the odds that the Giant Robot Spaceship Fighter from the 23rd Century just happens to be a big fan of Nickelback? But you'll get used to it. After a while, it will even begin to seem natural for an extremely pretty boy to work through his issues by kicking the shit out of his enemies while singing "Feelings." When you reach this state, it is time to go back to live-action vids.)

  3. If you are on dial-up, anime vids are not for you. Anime vidders think nothing of uploading an 80 MB three minute vid. So much so that I've reached a point where I'm vaguely suspicious of any anime vids smaller than 30 MB. (I find myself squinting narrowly at the download box and thinking, "What did you cut, exactly, to get it down that small?" But this is very wrong and size queeny of me and I'm well aware of it.)

  4. Anime vidders are like magpies: very drawn to the shiny. They like bright colors and flashing frames and scenes where 18 characters from different fandoms do the funky chicken. After a while, you'll like it, too. Or you'll have an epileptic seizure. One or the other.


A Nearly Useless Guide to AMV.org

  1. AnimeMusicVideos.org: it's where the vids are. This is the best vid site ever. All the links below, and almost all of the anime vid links I'll ever provide, will go there. You can download vids from AMV until your bandwidth sobs openly and holds an intervention. But you need to register for an account first. Registration is free, and they don't molest your email address or anything. (As far as I know.)

    Plus, once you have an account, it will track the vids you download - you'll never download something twice. And when you've rated some vids - which you have to do every ten downloads - you can get suggestions of other ones you might like. Seriously, it's very neat. Also, there are forums. I don't visit them, mind you, on account of my tragic allergy to other people, but I'm sure they're wonderful.

  2. You don't need to leave feedback. That's kind of a controversial statement, but - anime vidders seem to want, and get, very detailed opinions from other fans, and by "detailed" I mean "you need, at minimum, a master's degree from a reputable film school in order to give them." If you have such a degree, I encourage you to go check out ZeWrestler and Iserlohn's Guide to Opinions. Everyone else, well. My advice is to just use the star ratings on AMV, and concentrate your actual written feedback on live-action vidders. You don't need an eight chapter guide to do that.

  3. There is a part of each vid page where the creator can talk about the vid. Skip it. Okay, no. Don't skip it. Read it. Because this is my issue, totally; it's just - when I started watching anime vids, there was nothing like the creator-talks section to make me feel like I needed to go somewhere more suitable for a person such as myself. Like, for example, a Gymboree. But I'm sure these things are actually very informative and useful, and I'm also sure I'm an idiot for posting vid recs without reading the creator's discussion of each one. And I am surprisingly comfortable with that.

    My real message about this is: don't read those sections until after you watch the vid. Reading what the vidder has to say will bias you; I found I could never quite come to my own terms with vids when I already knew what the creator was intending to do. Admittedly, my terms were generally a lot more like, "Oooo. Vid pretty" rather than "And then, in the section that starts at about 1.14 (with the marimba), it transitions to an overall theme of the despair of the human condition," but, well. They were still my terms.


So. Great vids. Accessible to all. Do you need another reason? Then try this: anime has a huge preponderance of ninjas, pirates, cowboys, gunslingers, assassins, robots, gay boys, lesbian girls, purple hair, and floating chicken-computer librarians. It has genderfuck, pandafication, angst, hurt/comfort, and more feathers than you could find in an entire archive of wingfic. Basically, anime is like all the glorious parts of fan fiction made canon. And anime vids pack these same things into four minutes. Anime vids: the primary reason you will never be bored again.

Bachelorette, by Kusoyaro. Revolutionary Girl Utena: the Adolescence of Utena. (More information about this movie. Thanks, [livejournal.com profile] strangerian!)

The source for this has canon genderfuck femslash (I told you it was like fan fiction in motion!) and, well, who doesn't love canon genderfuck femslash? Not me, people; when I'm in meetings where I have to introduce myself and list three things I love, "canon genderfuck femslash" always makes the list, generally preceded by "canon genderfuck boyslash" and "copyright infringement for fun, not profit." I am so professional it hurts.

But I want you to see this one because of the movement. It's - this is one of the first anime vids I ever watched that completely hypnotized me; I had to watch it three times just to get to the point where I start with most vids. (Which is, basically, asking who and what and where and why and also what is up with all the rose petals?) It's just...it's really, really gorgeous, without having that kind of "I'm going to use another effect here because it's anime so I can nyah nyah nyah" feel that anime vids sometimes get. Am I allowed to say a vid is lyrical? Probably not. So, okay - this is, in effect, an instrumental type vid; yes, there are lyrics, but the vid's focus is matching music and images, not words and images or plot and images. I'm not sure exactly why the creator went that direction, but oh how it works, and it requires absolutely no background knowledge at all.

Urban Ragnarok, by jbone. Metropolis.

I'm not sure why it is, but Metropolis (the anime) has produced so many excellent vids it should have been a struggle to pick one. But it wasn't, because this vid wins at everything: effects, music, cutting, tone, beat, depth, everything. I mean, the mood switches alone are just...and also, OMG, the content, and...see? I'm incoherent. This vid will do that to you. You need to see this, and I don't care if you've never heard of either Metropolis.

(Although if you have, and it's the live-action Metropolis - okay. Everyone who has a degree in film, please move on to the next vid summary right now. The rest of you - if you stared in total bewilderment at Fritz Lang's Metropolis and finally agreed that it was a brilliant classic just to get the person who showed it to you to shut up before your brains ran out your nose, this vid will hold a special extra pleasure for you. There are no very fuzzy scenes of random jerky people doing something that, yes, might be an allegory for the human condition in a technological society, but also might very well be an early version of the Frug. And the amazing visuals? Are actually there. If you watched Metropolis like I watched Metropolis - at the behest of a person with an unexpected sadistic streak, basically - then this vid will heal your soul.)

Here Comes the Sun, by Daniel Chang. Multifandom.

This is a gorgeous tribute to Hayao Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli (makers of Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, Howl's Moving Castle, Kiki's Delivery Service, etc.). There's no special reason you need to have seen any of the sources to see this vid, although if you ever tell a real anime fan you've never seen a Ghibli movie you will bring pain into the universe. Possibly your own pain. (And also, roughly three times out of five, you'll get an extensive lecture about the evils of Disney. Sometimes with PowerPoint presentations. And it's not that the anime fan will be wrong, it's just that after the first hour you will be searching desperately for the emergency eject button. Myself, I'd just lie.)

But. My point is, if you have seen some Ghibli - and I'd recommend at least Spirited Away - you'll know that they aren't all sunshine and roses (more of a flying and fantasy kind of thing, really), but this vid is pretty much pure sunshine. (Plus a lot of flying. It is Ghibli, after all.) It's sweet, sentimental, and gentle, and I defy anyone to get all the way through it without experiencing a certain warming of the heart. (Warning: this may be an unsettling experience for my fellow I'm-not-a-cynic-I'm-a-realists.) What I find most fascinating about this vid, though, is how using the works of a single studio with a consistent style provides visual and thematic continuity that you just don't get in most multifandom vids; these sources just go together in a way that becomes very, very clear when you see them next to each other.

Right Now Someone Is Reading This Title, by Doki Doki Productions. Multifandom.

This is a perfect bridge between media fandom and anime fandom. Because, okay, it's a series of in-jokes set against clips from about 50 sources, and it should be the least accessible thing in the world. But you don't need to know the sources, because 75% of the jokes are actually about fandom and fans. I get most of them even though I know nothing about anime or the anime fan world. Plus, it's one of the talkiest vids I've ever seen - in terms of words on the screen, I mean - that worked, and it works so well. That alone is downright amazing, because generally if there's more than a few words on the screen I find myself wondering why the vidder didn't just go ahead and write fan fiction. There are some stunningly brilliant exceptions to that, though, and this is one of them.

(Side note the first: watch for the appearance of the Disney/Ghibli - and I know what you're thinking, but trust me: no one should write that pairing - thing. You will feel cool! At least, you will if you are a dork like me.) (Side note the second: Best Beloved swears this song had an actual music video very much like this one. Can anyone point me to a download of it? Or something? Because there are wistful remarks every time I play this, and, seriously, there's only so much wistfulness a girl can stand.)

Die Another Day, by VicBond007. Noir.

I wanted to be sure to include at least one special effects intensive vid, and - well, wait. All of these are special effects intensive, most of them actually much more than this one, but this one has what I believe will be the most noticeable effects to a new watcher. It's fast, it's action-packed, and it's easy to follow even if you have no idea what Noir is about. (Assassins! Amnesiacs! I'm telling you, anime fans don't have to smoke crack, because the canon creators do it for them.) And you can really appreciate the sheer shininess of the tools that anime vidders have at their disposal.

Plus, okay. See - I have a weakness for pairings in which one person tries to kill the other but they love each other anyway. I'm sorry. I have no idea what twisted part of my psyche believes that true love means having to wear Kevlar. But I do know that this vid hits that kink in spades; sure, mostly they're fighting on the same side, but that opening scene where they're pointing guns at each other? My reaction to this is: OMG SQUEEEEEEEE THEY ARE SO IN LOVE! In other words, my inner fangirl totally emerges and starts drawing little hearts on the screen. (Those of you who have seen Trigun will now understand why I liked that series so much. Up until the last disc. Damn you, last disc!)

Failed Experiments in Video Editing, by Elizabeth Kirkindall/Big Big Truck Productions. Cowboy Bebop and original drawings.

You really don't need to know the source to get this vid, since it is in fact not about Cowboy Bebop, but I am providing a link so that those of you with any soul at all can add it to your Netflix queues. This series has Ein in it. Ein, possibly my favorite character in all the world. (And, oh my god, I just realized: there totally needs to be a Cowboy Bebop x due South story in which Ein and Diefenbaker, another of my favorite characters in all the world, meet. This is Meant to Be, people.)

So. This is what meta looks like in an anime vid; it's a vid about vidding. I'm sure this is even more funny if you have ever actually made a vid of any kind, but really you only have to have seen a couple, live action or anime, to appreciate, for example, the "Down in the River to Pray" sequence. This vid makes me happy when skies are gray. Or, more specifically, when I have watched too many vids in which the works of Evanescence are used to explore the theme that John really, really loves Rodney. (Or that Buffy really loves Angel, or that Diefenbaker really loves doughnuts. Whatever. Because that's the beauty of the Classic Evanescence Rite of Passage Vid: no matter what source you choose, you get a vid consistent in quality and theme with all other CERPVs.) And I'm actually trying to avoid saying anything more about the vid, for fear of spoiling it, so I think I'll go with the time-tested method of doing that and shut up. (Yes. You are allowed one relieved sigh. But only one.)

[identity profile] doki.livejournal.com 2006-06-25 01:12 am (UTC)(link)
(only posting now since I just found this via Google)

Even though I'm already familiar with AMVs, I often find newcomers' (for lack of a better word) perspectives interesting. Particularly those as in-depth as this one. A few things:

"Anime vidders think nothing of uploading an 80 MB three minute vid."

With "video quality" being one of the things rated in user opinions, people tend to upload high resolution videos. Or sometimes people just forget to compress the audio. (argh)

"you need, at minimum, a master's degree from a reputable film school in order to give them."

They're not always detailed. :) One opinion I got a few months ago:
"Good: very funny
Bad: [blank]
General: [blank]"

"But I want you to see this one because of the movement"

Have you seen Rhythm Animation (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=978)?

"the appearance of the Disney/Ghibli - and I know what you're thinking, but trust me: no one should write that pairing - thing."

Are you saying what I think you're saying? O_O

Right now (I was so sick of those two words for a few months after I finished the video) that part seems a little dated since Disney has released most of the Ghibli movies by now, but in 2001 it was ridiculous. The Disney-Ghibli deal was made in 1996, the September 1998 dub VHS of Kiki's Delivery Service said that Castle in the Sky (Laputa) was "Coming Soon", and it ended up only being released in 2003.

Most of what I'd recommend off the top of my head can be found on the Top 10% (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/top10percent.php) (and comedy subsection (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/top10percent.php?t=&f=&c=2)), but I'd like to mention a couple:
Anime Couch Potato (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=22671): He only ever made one video, according to his profile. Pity. Reminds me of something I'd make.
Spectacular Anime (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=7877): Very fun. She's only done three AMVs, but she's also done a Firefly video (http://jescaflowne.livejournal.com/68370.html).
(I've done one live action video, but it's not online right now)

As for your One Piece question above, yes it's the same One Piece, but due to various legalities, technicalities, and other -ities, North American companies release anime much slower than fansubbers.

Finally, I found this Harry Potter version of Right Now (http://its-art.livejournal.com/123435.html) a while back, but I haven't watched it since it has spoilers. (I've been lazy and haven't seen/read beyond the third book)

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2006-06-26 01:42 pm (UTC)(link)
(only posting now since I just found this via Google)

*blink blink* Okay, I'm curious. How did you find this through Google?

Or sometimes people just forget to compress the audio.

Ah! This explains why sometimes file size in no way correlates to video quality. A mystery is solved!

But when they do mean better video quality, I like the giant files. It's just - it's one of those things that's bound to make a person from media fandom blink, because over here 30+ MB vids aren't the norm, and vids that are uploaded in larger files are usually also offered in a smaller size. I still download a lot of live-action vids that are in the 10 - 15 MB range, and I can't remember the last time I even saw an AMV that size.

(Which makes it really hard to go between live-action vids, where in some cases you have to be familiar with the source to follow the visuals and the point is more - mmm, more story-telling, maybe? - and anime vids, where everything is very, very pretty.)

They're not always detailed. :)

Well, okay, but you need some background here. I've spent time whining at my fellow non-vidding vid watchers to leave some damn feedback, for god's sake. (See especially here (http://thefourthvine.livejournal.com/45633.html).) Vidders in this neck of fandom don't get a lot of feedback of any kind. (This is particularly a problem on LJ, where people can easily compare comment volume; they can see a 1000 word story getting ten times as many comments as a vid in the same fandom. It can give people the impression that their vids are not particularly valued, even though they are.) And there aren't competitions as alternate sources of feedback, either.

Saying "Hey! I liked this!" is pretty much the only way watchers can reward a vidder's effort. And live-action vidders are generally very happy with simple, one-line comments, because much of the time they only have download stats to tell them that anyone is interested at all.

So in live action, almost no one would talk about "useful" or "quality" feedback; if it's there and it's not a massive insult, it's a very good thing.

AMV opinions, though, are obviously different; just the fact that AMV has a guide to giving opinions makes that clear. (The guide to giving opinions on live action vids would be, in toto: "Say something.") In this post, I was trying to send people who are already notoriously uncomfortable with giving vid feedback to AMV land. And, well, if they're going to start with vid feedback (please please please), that is probably not the place to do it.

Basically, what I was saying was, "With AMVs, I won't whine at you about feedback, because their ways are not our ways."

Have you seen Rhythm Animation?

I have now. Wow. That's...wow.

Are you saying what I think you're saying? O_O

Oh, I definitely am. I'm not saying that one of my friends might write Disney/Ghibli non-consensual BDSM NC-17 anthropomor_fic, but there's always a chance, and - oh, who am I kidding? I'd totally write that if non-con didn't give me hives. (I spent a lot of time on a messageboard interested in this topic back when the Disney movie about Atlantis came out. It was, shall we say, a volatile topic.)

Anime Couch Potato: He only ever made one video, according to his profile.

I love this one. Just in general, Weird Al songs seem to result in wonderful vids. (But I am predisposed toward comedy, which likely has something to do with it.)

Spectacular Anime: Very fun.

*downloads*

As for your One Piece question above, yes it's the same One Piece.

...Am I crazy, or are there pirate clowns in One Piece? Because oh my god I am not watching that if there are. I don't think it's even coming into this house. Clowns are pure evil.

[identity profile] doki.livejournal.com 2006-06-27 06:48 am (UTC)(link)
"*blink blink* Okay, I'm curious. How did you find this through Google?"

By searching for "doki doki productions". I do that from time to time.

"because over here 30+ MB vids aren't the norm,"

Yeah, I checked out the front page of [livejournal.com profile] vidding, and it seemed like most are WMV. Some AMV fans won't even download videos in WMV format. Also, I guess, anime fans who download anime are used to large DivX files. (though newer fansubs are using newer compression formats)

"live-action vids, where in some cases you have to be familiar with the source to follow the visuals and the point is more - mmm, more story-telling, maybe?"

Drama seems to be the dominant category, in AMV contests anyway. I haven't seen some of the newer anime, so I don't "get" some drama AMVs.

"And there aren't competitions as alternate sources of feedback, either."

VividCon doesn't have any contests? (I only know of the con vaguely. I'm surprised it's so small)

"Basically, what I was saying was, "With AMVs, I won't whine at you about feedback, because their ways are not our ways."

I get it. :) As I recall, one reason for all the feedback mechanisms, top lists, etc. is that the owner of the site wanted a way to find good videos easily. (He doesn't have time to watch a whole lot) This has been refined over time. "Star ratings" and "quick comments" are relatively new, compared to the site's lifetime.

"I'm not saying that one of my friends might write Disney/Ghibli non-consensual BDSM NC-17 anthropomor_fic"

Eek. I've heard of AMVs inspiring cosplay, but not fanfic.

"I love this one. Just in general, Weird Al songs seem to result in wonderful vids."

There were complaints that he was overused several years back, but it's died down. He's due for a comeback. ;)
Apparently someone showed my Senshi On Springer (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=166) video to Weird Al at a con one year, and he "laughed his ass off".

"(But I am predisposed toward comedy, which likely has something to do with it.)"

Me too. :)

"...Am I crazy, or are there pirate clowns in One Piece?"

I haven't watched it, actually (I know it from AMVs), but an episode guide gives one Japanese title as "Fear, Mysterious Power! Pirate Clown Captain Buggy!"

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2006-06-27 12:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I checked out the front page of [livejournal.com profile] vidding, and it seemed like most are WMV.

The more experienced live-action vidders (the distinction I'm drawing here is basically "This is my first vid it took soooooo long like 6 hours LOL please R&R" v. everyone else) are more likely to offer an .avi version, although a lot of them will also offer wmv, too.

Some AMV fans won't even download videos in WMV format.

I tend to avoid it, too, and not just for AMVs.

VividCon doesn't have any contests? (I only know of the con vaguely. I'm surprised it's so small)

Vividcon doesn't have contests; actually, I'd say people in this neck of fandom tend to avoid contests just in general, on the grounds that they can lead to a lot of wank and whining and the kind of grudges that expand to fill all available space.

Vividcon has shows, built around various themes. (Instrumental vids, for example. Vids about spies. AMVs.) The person who plans the show selects the vids, some or all of which may be already released; generally, the vids are picked to make a specific point.

New vids are most notably shown in the Premieres panel, and I think everyone who goes to the con can submit one. (I think. Note: I've never been to Vividcon. Take this all under advisement.) Vids in that show get critiqued on the spot by the other attendees. No prizes or voting or anything.

Vividcon spaces generally sell out within hours (and I think this year it was minutes), but, as I understand it, the organizers limit the spaces to keep it informal and to make sure things like the Premieres show work. (And also possibly so that they don't want to die, or just kill 30% of all vidders, in the middle of preparations.)

There are live-action vid (which I am here and now abbreviating LAV in an attempt to stave off the world's most specialized RSI) awards, though. I just can't think of any that are con-linked. They tend to be lower-profile and web-based, run by a person or a handful of people, and either voted on by general fandom, in which case it's typically fandom-specific (for example, the Clamshell Awards (http://clamshell.craisie.com/award/index.php?set=Results), which are for Farscape vids) or by one person or a small panel of judges (these tend to be pretty evanescent, and I can't think of any examples off the top of my head; obviously, this is not how I find LAVs to watch). People will offer lists of the awards a vid has won on their websites, sometimes. That's about the extent of it.

the owner of the site wanted a way to find good videos easily. (He doesn't have time to watch a whole lot)

And he thought running that site would help? I totally love the place and I'm thrilled that he created it, but if he didn't have much time to spare before he started it, does he have time to watch any vids at all now?

Eek. I've heard of AMVs inspiring cosplay, but not fanfic.

Huh. Maybe it's just hidden from you (the collective you, I mean: the AMV mainstream), because I've seen several examples of cross-pollination between vids and fan fiction in AMVs, and I haven't been looking.

There were complaints that he was overused several years back, but it's died down.

I totally support Weird Al being overused. At least he's got a substantial back catalog of songs, and people tend to use different ones, so it's not like the same two songs are being hammered into the ground. (Hallelujah! I'm Too Sexy! Holding out for a Hero!)

"Fear, Mysterious Power! Pirate Clown Captain Buggy!"

OH MY GOD NO. That's coming off the list. Why are people trying to protect children from nudity and violence on TV when a child can easily obtain anime featuring clowns? Some people have no sense of priorities.

Oh, and the HP Right Now vid? I watched it - thanks for the link! - and you might want to give that one a miss. It's got a lot of jokes you're guaranteed not to get; you really need to know HP canon and fandom.

[identity profile] doki.livejournal.com 2006-06-30 08:09 am (UTC)(link)
"(the distinction I'm drawing here is basically "This is my first vid it took soooooo long like 6 hours LOL please R&R" v. everyone else)"

We get those too. Sometimes one or two hours.

"avoid contests just in general, on the grounds that they can lead to a lot of wank and whining and the kind of grudges that expand to fill all available space."

You mean drama (http://www.doki.ca/pics/misc/amvdrama.gif)? :)

AMV Contests have been going on so long (since at least '92, off the top of my head), I don't know who first decided to have them compete instead of simply shown.

"Vividcon has shows, built around various themes."

The con that's been the most dedicated to AMVs over the years (AWA - Anime Weekend Atlanta) usually has editors host hour-long blocks. They can show whatever they want. Their own stuff, stuff that inspired them, or just stuff they like. One guy shows only Utena videos. He likes Utena.

"New vids are most notably shown in the Premieres panel,"

It wasn't as much of an issue years ago, but these days, one thing contests effectively do is to find the "best" videos and condense them to a few-hour contest block for the attendees. Then, the anime fans who like AMVs (but not *like* like AMVs) can see the "best", then do other con stuff. Some cons then also show the other new videos they received in "overflow" blocks so those who are bigger fans of AMVs can see even more. Basically, when fans are judging an AMV contest, they won't sit through all the entries some cons receive. (in the hundreds, for some of them)

"Vids in that show get critiqued on the spot by the other attendees."

Probably a good thing given the fewer feedback mechanisms elsewhere. Also more feasible with fewer attendees.

"(And also possibly so that they don't want to die, or just kill 30% of all vidders, in the middle of preparations.)"

So many well-known AMV editors go to AWA each year, people joke that if something catastrophic happened, the hobby would die out. :)

"And he thought running that site would help?"

Well, he also wanted to create a community... Now he has minions. But now his job is very busy so he doesn't have much time to watch.

"Huh. Maybe it's just hidden from you (the collective you, I mean: the AMV mainstream),"

I don't follow fanfic at all. That's one problem.

"it's not like the same two songs are being hammered into the ground. (Hallelujah! I'm Too Sexy! Holding out for a Hero!)"

In The End! My Immortal!

"It's got a lot of jokes you're guaranteed not to get; you really need to know HP canon and fandom."

Thanks for the info.

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2006-07-02 04:24 am (UTC)(link)
Question, before I get to the cut-and-paste portion of the program - are AMV opinions conversations or essays? In other words, does the creator typically respond (like, to say "thanks for your opinion" or whatever) to opinions? I'm trying to figure something out, and knowing that would help a lot.

You mean drama? :)

*flinches*

*hides*

Oh, most definitely. But, luckily, we don't have so much of that in the LA vidding world; less luckily, that's because it's totally overshadowed by general fandom wank.

AMV Contests have been going on so long (since at least '92, off the top of my head), I don't know who first decided to have them compete instead of simply shown.

I'd love to know, but that's, like, 14 fandom generations ago, so I suppose it's impossible to find out. It's interesting to me because I think perhaps the contests may have had substantial influence on AMV style. One of the things I notice about AMVs is that there's a much higher percentage of watch-only-once vids: technically brilliant but not especially compelling at a deeper level. And I wonder if contests have something to do with that - people go for what works best on the first viewing because they know that's the one that counts.

It wasn't as much of an issue years ago, but these days, one thing contests effectively do is to find the "best" videos and condense them to a few-hour contest block for the attendees. Then, the anime fans who like AMVs (but not *like* like AMVs) can see the "best", then do other con stuff.

This is pretty much what happens at all the cons besides Vividcon - Escapade and Con.txt and so on. There's a vid show that's put together by the show moderator, and she generally shows whatever she wants. (Like, Absolute Destiny's I Wish I Was a Lesbian was a big hit at Con.txt, which happened right before I made this post; I didn't know they'd be showing any AMVs in the vid show, since that's a new new thing, but it definitely helped persuade people to wander over to the AMV side.)

In most media cons, vids are a popular sideshow attraction - maybe one of the most popular, even, but that doesn't mean people will sit through a lot of crappy vids or give a lot of really good feedback. Hence, Vividcon. Is my understanding.

So, in your opinion, the contests do reveal the best AMVs? I mean, the mechanism works for separating the wheat from the chaff? Because I'd wonder about the influence of popular fandoms, popular names, shininess, etc. on the vote results.

In The End! My Immortal!

Oh, don't. I'm trying to forget. (Wish me luck.) Is there a law that says everyone has to vid one Linkin Park song? (And why is it that the instrumental cliches - Battle without Honor or Humanity, Pompeii, etc. - aren't nearly as annoying?)

At least with Closer - only a cliche at the LAV end of fandom, and then probably only because of Killa's amazing ST:TOS vid - we know the vid will be interesting. But the basic Linkin Park vid is anything but. It's pretty much: *cut to Naruto, yelling* *cut to something blowing up* *cut to someone else, yelling* *cut to gun/sword/hand-to-hand fight* *cut to viewer, dying of ennui*

[identity profile] doki.livejournal.com 2006-07-07 04:31 am (UTC)(link)
"are AMV opinions conversations or essays? In other words, does the creator typically respond (like, to say "thanks for your opinion" or whatever) to opinions?"

It really depends on the creator. I don't read a lot of opinion pages, so I don't know how typical it is or isn't.

"Oh, most definitely. But, luckily, we don't have so much of that in the LA vidding world; less luckily, that's because it's totally overshadowed by general fandom wank."

The two biggest anime cons in the States (Anime Expo and Otakon) had/are having problems this year. A very well done video (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=122242) was disqualified at AX for not being enough like an AMV. Otakon didn't get many entries this year. (Sixty-some, as opposed to 180 a few years ago) This is attributed to a) early deadline b) no FTP, c) disappointment with how the contest has been run in the recent past.

"One of the things I notice about AMVs is that there's a much higher percentage of watch-only-once vids: technically brilliant but not especially compelling at a deeper level. And I wonder if contests have something to do with that - people go for what works best on the first viewing because they know that's the one that counts."

I haven't concerned myself with multiple viewing a whole lot. I mostly do comedies, so yeah, I am actually concerned about what works on the first viewing, because you don't laugh at a joke after you've seen it a bunch of times.

"In most media cons, vids are a popular sideshow attraction - maybe one of the most popular, even, but that doesn't mean people will sit through a lot of crappy vids or give a lot of really good feedback. Hence, Vividcon. Is my understanding."

a-m-v.org is fortunate to have stayed up as long as it has. It's bad enough for you guys that in the past (for example) Fox has shut down simple fan websites... But what I'm wondering is -- I know about the LJ vidding group, but are there mailing lists where live action videos are discussed/announced as well? Are there other places for discussion? (sometimes people ask this on a-m-v.org)

"So, in your opinion, the contests do reveal the best AMVs? I mean, the mechanism works for separating the wheat from the chaff?"

Well, I've judged a few contests, so if they don't, I'm part of the problem. :)

"Because I'd wonder about the influence of popular fandoms, popular names, shininess, etc. on the vote results."

Definitely. I heard a few people complaining about how popular Naruto was at Anime Expo 2006's contest. Several cons do things in different ways, which I like because if you don't like one con, then you can enter another. In the case of the contest I just judged (this is pre-judging, before the con), the entries were "blind" (no names), so except for a few that I'd seen before, I didn't know who did what. In this case popular shows didn't work for them since I'm not up on every new show. ;) As for shininess, certain videos did show levels of technical sophistication, but others poorly used effects and were marked down. Some cons do all-judge voting (and they get a variety of judges), some cons do fan voting. AWA has one contest where everyone who submits gets a copy of everyone's video, and everything is peer-judged. (Like the contest I just judged, it's supposed to be blind)

""In The End! My Immortal!"
Oh, don't. I'm trying to forget. (Wish me luck.) Is there a law that says everyone has to vid one Linkin Park song?"


I did all 12 at once (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=5666). :) (well, all that existed at the time) Just short snippets, as a joke. This type of video has been popularised recently (for better or worse) by AMV Hell (http://amvhell.com/).

"(And why is it that the instrumental cliches - Battle without Honor or Humanity, Pompeii, etc. - aren't nearly as annoying?)"

No angsty yelling? Hey, check out this Aliens video (http://www.doki.ca/temp/aliens.mov). (with a mix of O Fortuna -- about 15MB) I found it long ago and kept it around. Or maybe you've seen it?

"*cut to viewer, dying of ennui*"

I'm about to break!

[identity profile] anenko.livejournal.com 2006-07-05 11:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Sorry to butt in, here, but:

"Fear, Mysterious Power! Pirate Clown Captain Buggy!"

OH MY GOD NO. That's coming off the list. Why are people trying to protect children from nudity and violence on TV when a child can easily obtain anime featuring clowns?


I understand that some people have deep Clown Issues--I'm none too fond of them, myself--but Buggy the Clown is dispatched of in two volumes. The rest of the characters are great. Or, you can bypass clowns altogether, and head straight for the fic: http://fleetingfancies.nokoru.net/fan-one-piece.html.

[identity profile] deconcentrate.livejournal.com 2006-06-28 06:36 am (UTC)(link)
I keep hunting for it on AMV because I really, really want a high-quality version of it, but as of yet, I haven't had any luck in finding one, so:

I have to rec you this vid by I can't find out who (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU6HdemrHv0&search=eureka%20seven) for EUREKA SEVEN, to the tune of Yuji Kajiura and the Stripes' "Open Your Heart."

Sadly, it is on YouTube only, as near as I can tell. If anyone reading this knows of a place where I can find a high-res version of this vid to save forever, PLEASE TELL ME LIKE NOW.

It takes all the central themes and moments and oh my god my heart bits and distills them into something that is clear and precise and just - I saw all this, watching the anime, but I cannot lie and say that I would have been able to make the points this vid makes as well as the vidder does here.

Be warned: those still not used to AMV lipsyncing tendencies will find one specific bit in the video (the part focusing on the pink-haired girl, Anemone) incredibly jarring, but trust me when I tell you: Anemone is disorienting and painful to watch (in the good way), so it's perfectly fitting with her character.

I think it does a good enough job getting all the visual knowledge you need to understand it across, but if you ever intend to watch EUREKA SEVEN unspoiled, you probably should not watch this video. Because it is spoilery as all heck.

Quick info on EUREKA SEVEN that you might need to know: E7 is about giant robots. And surfing. And giant robots that surf. Also about treating the Earth right, the importance of counterculture, the War on Terror, the importance of family, and True Love. And surfing. Did I mention the surfing yet? There is not much slash potential (not to say that there isn't any, but it's kind of overwhelmed by the [and this is a rare phrase for me to use, so be aware] blissfully happy-making heterosexual pairings) in the series, but that's really Okay, because the het in this show is of such purely joyous and perfect quality that I actually find my usual need for slash completely absent, because it's just that damn satisfying.

Also, the ending

You can't make that kind of crack up if you try, and if liking a het pairing that lovably dorky is wrong, I DON'T WANT TO BE RIGHT.

So yeah, I can't rec this video enough. Let me know what you think?

[identity profile] deconcentrate.livejournal.com 2006-06-28 08:21 am (UTC)(link)
Also also also the song it's set to is in Japanese, but I don't understand Japanese either and I followed it (the message/tone, I mean) okay, so.

That shouldn't be a problem.

[identity profile] scintilla72.livejournal.com 2007-02-07 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)
> You don't need to leave feedback. That's kind of a controversial statement, but - anime vidders seem to want, and get, very detailed opinions from other fans, and by "detailed" I mean "you need, at minimum, a master's degree from a reputable film school in order to give them."

NO! Please, no! Please do not think that the only written opinions we care about are the long, detailed, often boring ones!

Speaking as an AMV editor, I know I really appreciate any written review the viewers deign to leave me, no matter how constructive, and I know I'm not the only one. In fact, I much prefer them to the star scale scores.

Please, everyone, even if it's just to say "I loved it", leave more reviews. You'll make some editor's day.

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2007-02-07 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooo, interesting!

Vid feedback (http://thefourthvine.livejournal.com/45633.html) is a subject that fascinates me. And I've definitely been wrong before - see, um, that whole post I just linked for details - about what vidders want and don't want in terms of feedback; like, before I did the project that post describes, I didn't realize just how much live-action vidders didn't get comments or feedback. (Compared to fan fiction, I mean - a story in a given fandom will get way more feedback than a vid of the same quality in the same fandom.) And I also didn't realize how much they wanted those comments, even from uninformed non-vidder types. (Which is what I am.)

But anime vidders have always struck me as a different bunch, and that's not a totally uninformed opinion; I know a couple of them, and they don't seem very interested in "I liked this!" type comments. And, of course, there's the Guide to Opinions (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/opinionguide/guide1.htm), which I've actually read several times (and once - but only once - attempted to follow), and which I tend to summarize in my own mind as, "Leave feedback, damn it. But it had better be good feedback, meeting these exacting standards, and if it isn't, you suck."

So these things lead me - or have led me - to believe that most AMV makers don't want unconstructive praise from people they don't know. I've wondered if this is because of the differences between live-action vidding and AMV making; for AMVs, there are contests and there are winners, plus there are the star rankings, so there's a sort of internal system for creating a hierarchy, and to ascend in that hierarchy, you need approval from other AMVers. Whereas in live-action vidding, the primary audience for vids is non-vidders, not other vidders, and there aren't really many contests or winners. The only reward live-action vidders get for their work is feedback from the viewers, who are, again, mostly fans of the source and not vidders themselves. In other words, my perception up to now has been that for AMV makers, the basic currency is critical acclaim from other AMV makers, whereas for live-action vidders, the basic currency is praise from the general fannish community.

Obviously, that makes a huge difference. I whine at people to leave vid feedback all the time, and I always tell them specifically not to do that for anime vids, because the people I know are part of the fannish community, but they are most definitely not AMV makers. And so, by what I've known up to now, live-action vidders very much want feedback from these people, whereas anime vidders don't.

So I guess my question is: really? AMV makers want to get "I loved it!" type feedback from people they don't know who have no standing in the AMV world? If so, um. I've been misleading people. Whoops. (Also, I owe - going by my amv.org download stats - approximately 600 pieces of feedback to AMV makers. Double whoops.)

My second question is: is there a way to test this, to find out for sure what most AMV makers want? (In general, if I'm going to whine at people to do something, I like to make sure I've tried it myself first.) In live-action vidding, I could figure out what vidders actually wanted by sending them feedback myself, but that's because we have the fannish convention of replying to feedback, especially emailed feedback. I don't think AMVers have that same convention; I suspect that if I sent randomly selected AMV makers feedback on a video, they wouldn't email me back. So a test run wouldn't tell me much - I have to get responses to know how the vidders reacted. And posting a poll to [livejournal.com profile] vidding wouldn't get me responses from AMV makers. So, do you have any suggestions for ways to find out what the average AMV maker thinks about random, uninformed praise? I'd very much love to know, because this is a topic I've been pondering for years.

[identity profile] scintilla72.livejournal.com 2007-02-07 08:55 pm (UTC)(link)
> So these things lead me - or have led me - to believe that most AMV makers don't want unconstructive praise from people they don't know. I've wondered if this is because of the differences between live-action vidding and AMV making; for AMVs, there are contests and there are winners, plus there are the star rankings, so there's a sort of internal system for creating a hierarchy, and to ascend in that hierarchy, you need approval from other AMVers.

What people have to remember about the AMV community is that the great majority of Org members are just doing it for fun. They don't care about the contests, they don't care about the heirarchy, they don't care about my car, they don't care about my money, and some of them don't even care about getting constructive criticism (some of them can't even handle it). My impression of the average AMVer is pretty similar to my impression of the average fanfic writer.
I think the reason people forget this is because it's the minority, the people who DO really get into the whole competitive aspect, that tends to do most of the talking there.

I mean, personally, when I first got into AMVing, I was quite pleasantly surprised when my first few videos made bigger splashes and got more feedback than I'd ever expected them to...

Even limiting ourselves to talking about the so-called heirarchy for the time being: There are contests, Top 10% lists, top Star Scale score lists, etc. ... but the non-vidding audience participates just as much in moving videos up the ranks. Many AMV contests at conventions are decided by a vote of the viewing audience (the largest such example being Otakon), and most of the opinions and star scores that get videos moved up those lists come from audience-only Org members who have never made a video in their lives.
A-M-V.org is blocked at my office, so I can't pull up the stats right now, but it has historically been the case that the non-vidding members at the Org far outnumber the vidding ones.

I think a good bit of supporting evidence for my position that most AMVers would love to hear any feedback is the addition of the Quick Comments feature (what was it, two years ago that it was added? something like that), which was specifically designed to make it easier to leave feedback if you didn't feel like taking the time to write out a detailed opinion.

(Of course, just looking at the opinions I've gotten, most are no longer than a few lines each; it doesn't take much effort to dial in a bunch of 9s and 10s and gush a little about the video.)

> My second question is: is there a way to test this, to find out for sure what most AMV makers want? [...] I don't think AMVers have that same convention; I suspect that if I sent randomly selected AMV makers feedback on a video, they wouldn't email me back.

Well, they might not email you back, but there's a good chance they'd respond to your opinion (it would then show up in pink on the "My Opinions Given" page). Also, once you've left an opinion on a video, you can read all the other opinions left by other people on that video, so you can see if the creator usually responds, what kinds of responses s/he gives, etc.

Or, you could just make a post about this topic on the General AMV section of the forum. I'm sure it would spark some very lively discussion; I don't think that wanted vs. unwanted feedback is something we talk about a lot.

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2007-02-08 12:19 am (UTC)(link)
I think the reason people forget this is because it's the minority, the people who DO really get into the whole competitive aspect, that tends to do most of the talking there.

This is an excellent point, and one I should have considered but hadn't: the most visible do not necessarily represent the majority.

My impression of the average AMVer is pretty similar to my impression of the average fanfic writer.

From the outside, the AMV world looks so different from the FF world. (Also from the outside, the live-action vidding world looks a lot like the fan fiction world, but that's not surprising; they have a very tightly interlinked history.) And yet, well, obviously the two groups share a common interest in breaking copyright for fun, not profit, and sincere love of their chosen canon. One thing I don't see in the AMV world is the multilayered community aspect, but then, I wouldn't, would I? I'm not in the AMV community.

Hmmm. Makes sense. And the one thing (almost) every FF writer craves is feedback: someone saying, "Hey, I read this. I liked it." So, if the two groups are similar, then (almost) every AMV maker should crave reviews, even if they just say, "Hey, I watched this. I liked it."

Of course, that makes me wonder why you don't talk about it more, if it's something you all want. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Of course, just looking at the opinions I've gotten, most are no longer than a few lines each; it doesn't take much effort to dial in a bunch of 9s and 10s and gush a little about the video.

True, and if that's acceptable, that's also totally doable. But, going by the Guide to Opinions, that's not acceptable - except, of course, going by the Guide to Opinions is me once again letting the most vocal speak for the entire community. There really is no way to figure out what people want but either testing them or asking them, is there?

Well, they might not email you back, but there's a good chance they'd respond to your opinion (it would then show up in pink on the "My Opinions Given" page). Also, once you've left an opinion on a video, you can read all the other opinions left by other people on that video, so you can see if the creator usually responds, what kinds of responses s/he gives, etc.

Don't take this wrong way, but I kind of hate you right now. You made two excellent suggestions, and they are totally workable, and that means my last objection to a project to figure out what, if anything, AMV makers want from viewers is totally blown out of the water.

In other words: oh my god, I'm going to have to grapple with the opinion form after all. I was sure I was excused from that! (And, guess what: I'm going to practice on you. After all, you're one of the only AMV makers I've ever heard actually speak the words "I want reviews.")

Or, you could just make a post about this topic on the General AMV section of the forum. I'm sure it would spark some very lively discussion; I don't think that wanted vs. unwanted feedback is something we talk about a lot.

Seriously? You guys don't talk about feedback? That's, like, one of the main topics of discussion in these parts; you can pretty much set your watch by feedback meta, and your calendar by feedback wank.

On the other hand, if you don't talk about it obsessively, that really explains some of the stranger interactions I've had with AMV makers since I started recommending AMVs.

So, let's see what happens if I ask about this on the boards. Spirited discussion? Grim silence? Should be interesting.

And, okay, opinions. I have them. Presumably I can give them.

Wish me luck.

[identity profile] scintilla72.livejournal.com 2007-02-08 01:01 am (UTC)(link)
> One thing I don't see in the AMV world is the multilayered community aspect...

Not quite sure what you mean by "multilayered community", but then, I'm not in the vidding or FF communities, so.

If you mean social stratification, some people do claim that it exists, and some people don't. Some claim that there's an "elite" group of friends that you have to get famous in order to get into, which usually prompts those who are perceived as being on that level to say that there is no such "inner circle" and that they really don't mind meeting other AMVers of all skill levels.

If you mean in terms of Internet presence, there is the Org, which was always meant to be a one stop shop -- a warehouse for every AMV in existence as well as a centralized hub for the community... but plenty of AMVers and AMV production groups have their own websites with their own fora, etc., and there are always people out there who haven't heard of any of them. (And then, in recent years, there's things like YouTube.)

> Of course, that makes me wonder why you don't talk about it more, if it's something you all want.

Well, there is a whole section of the forum devoted to exchanging opinions, but I think most of the people who start threads in there tend to be of the type that give long and detailed ops, so.

> But, going by the Guide to Opinions, that's not acceptable - except, of course, going by the Guide to Opinions is me once again letting the most vocal speak for the entire community.

I honestly don't think most Org members even know that guide exists. <^^ It's very rarely mentioned on the forum. Looking at the date, it was also probably written in a time when there were proportionately more of the more serious-type AMV editors frequenting the site. As AMVing got more mainstream in the years that followed, more of the casual fans and editors joined up. Slightly akin to any community that starts underground but becomes mainstream, like even the animé fandom in general... but I'm probably not the best one to talk about AMVing going mainstream, seeing as how I've only been in the community since 2003.

> Don't take this wrong way, but I kind of hate you right now. You made two excellent suggestions, and they are totally workable, and that means my last objection to a project to figure out what, if anything, AMV makers want from viewers is totally blown out of the water.

Good luck! ^_^ I'm always interested to see what kind of viewpoints and opinions arise out of discussions and experiments like this in the community...

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2007-02-08 01:46 am (UTC)(link)
Not quite sure what you mean by "multilayered community", but then, I'm not in the vidding or FF communities, so.

What I meant by multilayered - okay. With fan fiction and live-action vidding, especially on LJ, fannish interaction becomes a springboard to personal interaction; we make friends, we post about our lives (well, except that I don't post about my life very much, but I am most definitely the outlier, there), we eventually interact on levels that have nothing to do with fannish activities. Eventually, we move on to other fandoms and other activities, but we tend to stay in touch with our old friends.

This multilayered interaction pattern has weird effects on the community as a whole - like, there's a lot of cross-pollination, a lot of weird ties, a lot of old buried wanks that get reaired every year or two. And it also has a major effect on how and why we leave feedback, how we respond to feedback, all that.

In general, I don't see that kind of interaction happening as much in AMV circles. But, as I said, I wouldn't; I'm not in those circles.

If you mean social stratification, some people do claim that it exists, and some people don't.

Okay, excuse me while I fall down laughing, because that is such a familiar topic to me. We have exactly that discussion all the time, except we call the inner circle folks Big Name Fans. People say that BNFs get more feedback (See? Everything ties into feedback here!), get their stories recommended more often, get friended more often, blah blah blah blah. In addition, we often hear that BNFs are trying to Rule Fandom. (They aren't. One of them once did, but these days trying to rule fandom would be like trying to rule several hundred thousand feral cats.) Or Ruin Fandom. Or Crush Newbies. All kinds of things. Those who are identified as BNFs, in turn, insist that a) there is no such thing as a BNF and b) if there is such a thing, they certainly aren't one.

It's good to know that some things are constants.

Well, there is a whole section of the forum devoted to exchanging opinions, but I think most of the people who start threads in there tend to be of the type that give long and detailed ops, so.

Frankly, I have always feared the forum, so I have no idea; my post today was my first venture into there. (Behold as I stalk the wiley anime vidder in its natural habitat!)

I honestly don't think most Org members even know that guide exists.

Seriously? Wow. It was the second thing I read once I joined. Although, really, that's not too surprising, given that the fan fiction and live-action vidding communities place so much more emphasis on feedback.

Well, that, plus I really like the concept of guides. By now I've read through most of the technical ones, too, and I will never ever make a vid of any kind.

As AMVing got more mainstream in the years that followed, more of the casual fans and editors joined up.

Interesting. Live-action vidding has seen that same kind of change, too; I tend to think in terms of old school and new school vidders, because although they both can make great vids (and they can both make totally sucky ones), the ones who started in, say, 2000 have very different outlooks and attitudes than the ones who started in just the last few years.

I'm probably not the best one to talk about AMVing going mainstream, seeing as how I've only been in the community since 2003.

In fannish years, I think that means you started about two full generations ago, so, hey, talk away.

I'm always interested to see what kind of viewpoints and opinions arise out of discussions and experiments like this in the community...

Obviously, I'm interested, too. Let's see what happens. And, since I can already tell that the eventual result of all this is going to be an essay of some description - may I quote you and/or link to these comments when I do write that essay? It will take me quite a while to get through the feedback portion of this project and on to the meta-writing portion, but I might as well ask while I have you here.

[identity profile] scintilla72.livejournal.com 2007-02-08 02:51 am (UTC)(link)
Re. multilayering: Ah, okay. That also seems to happen an okay bit in the AMV world: people start interacting online, then meet each other IRL at cons, and the same sort of thing happens... at least, that seems to hold true for the people on my friends list. I mean, two of them even got an apartment together, and I think they met via the AMV community, but I could be wrong.
It probably happened more back in the days of the Off Topic forum, which Phade had originally started in order to help AMVers get to know each other better... come to think of it, I guess he was trying to promote exactly this kind of phenomenon. But in late 2003, I think it was, they closed that board due to abuse that was getting out of hand.

You should see some of the conversations that people have across their a-m-v.org journals... often bizarre, random, and having nothing to do with vidding. (And some complain that the journals were never meant to be used as a chat room...)

> Seriously? Wow. It was the second thing I read once I joined.

Well, for all I know, it may be more popular with those who don't talk on the fora. But you wouldn't believe how many people show up on the forum asking questions that prove they never bothered to read those guides. Not even the technical ones; you get stuff like "how do I make AMVs?" or "where do I download the videos?".

Feel free to quote and/or link; I don't think I've said anything too embarrassing. Heck, some of your readers might recognize my name (I've won my fair share of AMV awards) and think that I'm likely to know what I'm talking about. :P

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2007-02-08 08:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, for all I know, it may be more popular with those who don't talk on the fora.

In general, online, I've found that there are people who read to figure things out and people who post so they don't have to figure things out. This is why, in any community, you can have a giant red banner across every page reading "THE ANSWER IS RABBIT," and require people to click on a statement that reads "You know the answer is rabbit, right?" and you will still have posts reading, "Ive ben searchin 4ever WHATS THE ANSER."

Lurkers, on the other hand, can't ask questions; it would require them to come out of lurkerdom. So they read whatever is available and figure it out on their own. Or not.

So, on AMV, my guess is that the people who read the guides are the turtles like me, who avoid the forum and interaction in general. Which means that those guides are all the information those people get about the anime music video culture and community. It makes for a very different picture.

[identity profile] kalium.livejournal.com 2007-02-08 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Seriously? You guys don't talk about feedback? That's, like, one of the main topics of discussion in these parts; you can pretty much set your watch by feedback meta, and your calendar by feedback wank.

One of the hallmark differences between the generic vidding community (such as it is) and the AMV community is the amount of meta. The former is chock full of it to an extent I sometimes find difficult to believe. The latter tends not to discuss it in a general sense, except for the rare occasions where it crops up. Or some guy writes down his thoughts on it.

Anyway, the general opinion on feedback seems to be "that which helps me improve is good". Of course, my exposure is somewhat biased, but there you have it.

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2007-02-08 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
The former is chock full of it to an extent I sometimes find difficult to believe.

Oh my god, so true. This is likely because, well, the live-action vidders mostly came from (and often are still in) fan fiction based fandom, and if there's one thing fan fiction folks do more than write stories about our favorite characters, it's write about why and how we write stories about our favorite characters. And why and how everything else even tangentially related to writing, too.

Compared to fan fiction, live-action vidding is actually under meta'd, if I may coin a really horrible verb. Which means that to the average fan fiction fan who is used to reading [livejournal.com profile] metafandom, it's completely bewildering how little meta there is about AMVs.

Anyway, the general opinion on feedback seems to be "that which helps me improve is good". Of course, my exposure is somewhat biased, but there you have it.

*thoughtful*

Actually, the general opinion seems to break down into precisely the same categories, and in roughly the same ratios, as opinion about feedback in the fan fiction community. So you have:
  1. Feedback is good. Any feedback; it's nice to know people are watching and liking my work. And if people want to throw in some extra reactions or thoughts or helpful criticism, that is also good. Yay feedback!

  2. Feedback that helps me improve is good. Any feedback that says what did and didn't work is welcome, especially if said feedback is relatively rational and sane.

  3. Only concrit is good. I only want detailed feedback from someone who really knows his stuff, that will greatly improve my work - basically, a beta after the fact.

  4. Only praise is good. I don't want to hear any negative things about my thing that I work hard on, don't get paid for, and love very much. (Note: no one seems to be copping to having this opinion, but people are reporting unhappy encounters with many others who do have this opinion. This attitude, and its prevalence in all fanworks communities, is what has driven fan fiction from the now-legendary Letter of Comment - basically, an ex post facto beta - to the LJ comment: "Ooo, yay, loved it, especially [quote line] and [quote line]. Awesome!" With the corollary that if you can't say something nice, you don't say anything, except in certain defined circumstances.)

  5. Whatever. I don't care. I have no interest in comments, feedback, or opinions.
The problem endlessly discussed in general feedback meta is the conflict between numbers 3 and 4. If you send concrit to someone who only wants praise, you have a) just wasted an hour of your time and b) pissed someone off. This isn't what you were hoping to do at all. (If you praise someone who just wants concrit, you've wasted only a few minutes of your time and his, which is a lot better. Plus, people have other ways of getting concrit (betas!), which is why LJ has become a mostly praise-only feedback community. It's the route of least wank, basically.)

And the problem endlessly discussed in vid feedback meta is the Viewer Problem. Most viewers don't have the tools and/or confidence to provide 3, and some won't even be able to provide 2, but everyone can provide 1 and 4. So the question becomes: what is better than nothing? Is any feedback (aside from trollishness and asshole comments) better than none? Or is there a minimum standard below which the feedback is worthless, or worse than worthless, and thus a waste of everyone's time?

My original thesis, based on some stuff I outlined to Scintilla above, was that there was indeed a minimum standard, and that in the AMV world that minimum standard was quite high - so high that a casual non-vidding viewer could never meet it. Scintilla's argument was, in effect, that that was untrue, that the minimum standard for AMV feedback was the same as for feedback anywhere (comprehensible and not trollish, basically).

For my next trick, I'm going to try leaving some feedback and see what happens.

(And now you see how come there is all this meta about live-action vidding and fan fiction: the people involved in it, even peripherally, cannot shut up. (Guilty!))

[identity profile] ersatzinsomnia.livejournal.com 2007-02-08 10:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Which means that to the average fan fiction fan who is used to reading metafandom, it's completely bewildering how little meta there is about AMVs.

Well, there is meta (by which I figure you mean "amvs about amving/amvers") but it may not be immediately obvious unless you've been digging around in AMVs for a while. Hell, AWA's grand prize Expo winner this year was Brian's Song (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=97676), and the whole thing is an enormous in-joke. Most of the meta stuff, though, is disguised so that most viewers will still think it funny without understanding it. Similarly, dokidoki's Hello Fairy (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=130950) video is actually a meta commentary about the "Hell" trend, but is pretty hilarious in all other respects too. (See also doki's Sunshine Lollipops and RRRrrrr (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=24001).) The "Hell" vids themselves could be considered somewhat meta. And, of course, there's plenty of "meta" commentary about anime trends in amvs... jokes on similarities between shows, the predictability of stories, the lameness of it's fans (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=127902). (Don't mean to be boosting Doki so much, he's just who came to mind in the "meta" category.)

(And one more meta vid I just have to plug, 'cause I'm in it...this one (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=24533).)

On the other topics... I dunno what to tell you about the comments. As a contest director I figured out a while ago that it would be a conflict for me to do extensive commenting on vids I might eventually have to judge, so I bowed out of that aspect. I think your impression about the complexity of the comments desired might be true to a larger extent in AMVs than for vidders, largely because the AMV community expanded so rapidly to enormous dimensions, and yet remained largely centralized. That means when a really popular vid does the rounds the editor can just get mobbed with people gushing over the vid, with very little interesting to say. Then, since everyone's looking in their direction, everyone sees when they pay much more attention to someone with a detailed review instead of a simple "good work" comment.

However, back when I was doing feedback, I found that AMVers who hadn't made it into the spotlight were very appreciative of my reviews, would go back and forth a couple of times in discussion, and beam in their journals about getting a review. Our version of your "big names" may be doing vids with a more specific audience in mind (specific amvers & friends) while newcomers are more apt to throw their vid out into the world, hoping to attract any attention they could get.

As for elitists... yeah that seems pretty universal. In AMVs it's mostly that the "old schoolers" were a pretty tightly-knit group for three or four years when stuff like the contests started coming out. Time allowed for drama & personality conflicts to fragment it, but more importantly the flood of new blood all wanting to be best buds with the "old schoolers" became difficult to deal with on an individual basis. Regional cliques formed, pseudo-factions broke out on the message boards, and we oldest and most bitter of amvers started retiring. It's not really elitism, it's just who we're good friends with.

[identity profile] thefourthvine.livejournal.com 2007-02-09 12:17 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, first, I just have to ask: how did you find this? I'm delighted to have you weighing in on this topic, but this is the tail-end of the comments section of an ancient post that I'm not even sure how Scintilla found, so I'm also confused.

Well, there is meta (by which I figure you mean "amvs about amving/amvers") but it may not be immediately obvious unless you've been digging around in AMVs for a while.

Oh, good point. I should've specified "written meta." Because, of course, AMVs have a fantastic amount of meta-in-the-form-of-AMVs - they just don't seem to have the same number of essays about AMV making, and the AMV world, and and and. (Live-action vidders do meta vids, too, but the difference in terms of meta essays - well, unless I'm missing a major source of AMV meta writing, we're talking about many orders of magnitude.)

This is one of those fannish language disconnects, I think; in this neck of fandom, when we say "meta," we definitely mean essays unless we tag another noun on there, like "meta vid" or whatever. (And, although we have vids that are commenting on vidding, the most famed meta vid is actually a vid commenting on being a fan.) I keep forgetting that there's a fannish jargon barrier.

I think your impression about the complexity of the comments desired might be true to a larger extent in AMVs than for vidders, largely because the AMV community expanded so rapidly to enormous dimensions, and yet remained largely centralized.

So, basically, comments on AMVs are, at least in that respect, a lot more like comments on fan fiction - the pattern you're describing is precisely what's happened as fan fiction fandom has exploded over the past six years. (Only the last three of which I was around for; I'm relatively new here.)

But, hmm. There seems to be less of a cultural directive in AMVs about appropriate feedback and comment behavior. Even though we argue it endlessly, there are definite unspoken rules about how you deal with feedback and comments (not to mention about a dozen massive, ongoing, never-to-be-resolved debates, and by "debates," I of course mean "vicious fights, often with severe casualities"). AMV makers don't seem to have a more-or-less shared general consensus about when and how you should leave opinions/comments/whatever or how you should respond to them.

Interesting.

It's not really elitism, it's just who we're good friends with.

Uh, yeah. We've got that, too. People go through stages in any hobby, and there's a time, usually when you're newer, when you're expanding your circle of acquaintances and making good friends, and then you come to a point where you don't have the time to do that anymore, so you pretty much just stick with the friends you have, adding one here and there when you can. And then, if you're one of the popular writers or vidders or whatever, people point and shout "clique" and "BNF."

Oh, fandom. We're so consistent in our wankiness. (But at least in AMVs you're probably spared the "mean girls from high school" discussions.)

[identity profile] scintilla72.livejournal.com 2007-02-09 12:32 am (UTC)(link)
> I'm delighted to have you weighing in on this topic, but this is the tail-end of the comments section of an ancient post that I'm not even sure how Scintilla found, so I'm also confused.

Oh, sorry about that... I probably should have mentioned that the LJ multifandom RP community [livejournal.com profile] campfuckudie's OOC community, [livejournal.com profile] campersfuckoff, had an AMV-pimping post, and somebody linked to both of your AMV recommendation posts, partially for the AMVs but also because they were good reading.

[identity profile] ersatzinsomnia.livejournal.com 2007-02-09 01:17 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, first, I just have to ask: how did you find this?

Heh. I followed dwchang who followed Scintilla. Dunno how dwchang found you.

they just don't seem to have the same number of essays about AMV making, and the AMV world, and and and.

Hmm... have you been through the "journal" function on the .org? Is that the sort of thing you're talking about? Or is it more a matter of circulated essays?

But, hmm. There seems to be less of a cultural directive in AMVs about appropriate feedback and comment behavior.

Heh. With all the highschoolers and teenagers we get flooding in, it's hard to keep anything like a "cultural consensus." If y'all manage it, my hat's off to you. I'm feeling more and more like the cranky old guy shouting at the kids on his lawn, but my impression is that the hobby has very suddenly skewed younger as I've gotten older, and brought a lot of teen angst & HS bullshit with it. On the other hand, it's also skewed more international, so you take the good with the bad. (New perspectives are helping to revitalize the creativity.) There's also a much higher turnover rate in the hobby lately... AMVing has become more like cosplay in that it's something fans consider they have to do qualify as real fans... rather than something a fan will do if they enjoy it.

People go through stages in any hobby...

Well, the difference is that there really was "a" group to start. The first "AMVer group." The very first AMVers (mid 80's on) all vaugely knew one another through the daisy-chain tape-trading circles that had cropped up in the 70's. But they really didn't know one another on a one-on-one basis. The advent of the AMV contests in the mid-to-late 90's, however, meant a place to go and show your work and actually MEET other AMVers. (Plus one of the contest heads made a massive effort to get 'em all down to Atlanta eventually.) And they, the ones that didn't burn out in a year, were a managable number... twenty or thirty people at most. Everyone really did get to know one another one-on-one, and formed a single all-inclusive group of friends who stayed together & hit all the cons for about four years. It was no exaggeration to say that you knew all the AMVers on the East or West coast. That's the group most AMVers refer to as the "old schoolers." The gradually increasing flood that the mailing list, ftp, then the website brought overwhelmed that ability. And then the trolls showed up & any pretense of our hobby being an "all for one" utopia blew up. (Hell, I could put a date to when that happened.) Anyrate, I kinda go into this here (http://ersatzinsomnia.livejournal.com/37517.html#cutid1) if you're at all interested.

But at least in AMVs you're probably spared the "mean girls from high school" discussions.

Well... I'm not familiar with the term. What does it mean?

[identity profile] ersatzinsomnia.livejournal.com 2007-02-09 01:21 am (UTC)(link)
Oh for heaven's sake...

The link I'd been given before was a "reply thread" that only showed a dozen or so replies. I've probably repeated half the stuff others have said above, trying to be helpful.

Sorry for the repetition.

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