thefourthvine: Art from Forsaken, with the text "I know politics bore you." (Politicis)
Keep Hoping Machine Running ([personal profile] thefourthvine) wrote2012-12-21 07:14 pm

[Rant] So You Want to Arm the Teachers

My son is in preschool right now. Since Newtown, I've been staring at his school, at his building, at his classmates, and thinking of all those kids who are dead now. I don't think any parent can help that.

And, hey, I am willing to do whatever it takes to stop that from happening again. Suggestions I've heard from gun control proponents: Reduce gun access, reduce rate of fire, increase waiting periods, make smart guns (with biometric chips to prevent firing by someone other than owner) mandatory.

Suggestion I've heard again and again from gun fanatics: Arm teachers. When every teacher has a gun, every child will be safe.



Gun fanatics, guys, can we talk about this? I like that you're trying, I like that you've acknowledged we have a terrible problem and we need to solve it now. But I don't think your solution is going to work. I keep running through it in my mind and hitting walls.

First, if we arm the teachers - well, it's not enough to arm them, right? (Although I tell you what: as a parent and taxpayer, I really am not thrilled with the idea that my school taxes will be going on guns instead of books. And please tell me you don't expect the teachers to buy their own guns.) You also have to train them. And this isn't a situation where you'll be training someone who wants to learn - most of these people will be afraid of guns, unwilling to fire them, unwilling to learn, because guess what: people who want to fire guns go into the military or law enforcement or gun shop ownership or whatever. They don't become teachers. I mean, sure, there are some teachers who like guns and are good with them, but it's not going to be the majority by any means. Most of them are going to be like me. I am sure you could teach me to safely own, handle, and fire a gun. I'm also sure that it would take a lot of work on your part, because I have limited dexterity, I don't have good aim, I (like many people) tend to freeze and shut down when I'm scared, and most of all: I don't want to learn to shoot a gun. I mean, most teachers will be like me unless you prioritize the ability to use firearms over the ability to, say, teach reading.

And these people can't just be trained a little. They have to be good enough to make a targeted shot when they're terrified (and remember: a lot of them, like me, will be prone to shutting down or freezing in an emergency; that is a human thing that happens), in a classroom where any miss means they may become the child-murderer. They have to be good enough to know when to fire. They have to be good enough to know when not to fire. Even police officers aren't always that good (links to many, many cases available as necessary), and police officers go into their careers expecting to learn to fire guns.

In other words, you're talking about adding a whole lot of training. For every teacher in every classroom in the country. Even though some states are so desperate for (cheap) teachers they've cut requirements and allow teachers to get certified for teaching over time as they're teaching. But the gun training - to be safe with a gun, to be useful with a gun, you have to know all this stuff before you step into the classroom. So you're proposing we prioritize educating teachers about guns over educating teachers about teaching.

Now. Let's say you get your wish. We no longer have teachers. We have a vaguely-educated militia heading up our nation's classrooms. Wow, I really hope no teacher ever loses it. And I say this as someone who once watched her teacher have a nervous breakdown. We sat frozen in our seats, twenty-two fourteen-year-old targets, as he yelled, wept, and threw things at us - pencils, chalk, a mug, books. Despite the noise and the open door, it took twenty minutes for someone to come help us. If he'd had access to a gun, boy, that would have gone a lot better, right?

No. I'd be dead.

And, hey, let's hope no teacher who has been trained to respond to threats by shooting them, trained to shoot instantly and well, ever feels threatened by a student at all. Or wants power over a student at all.

Or are you saying you're okay with that kind of collateral damage? With kids at risk from their teachers if the teachers are having a bad day or a bad time? Because to me this sounds like a recipe for more dead kids, not fewer. And what I want is no dead kids.

I don't know how to solve that one, but let's assume you do. (Spoiler: You won't.) Now we have our teachers, and they're trained, and they're armed, and they're ready and willing to shoot. Where do you keep the guns? If they're safely stored in the classroom - in a locked box, ammunition separate from the gun - then I'm not really clear on how the teacher is going to get to the gun in case of a mass shooting.

And if they're not safely stored, if they're on the teacher - look, have you been to a classroom recently? Not a high school. A preschool. A kindergarten. A first grade classroom. Those teachers have a lot of physical contact with the students. It's inevitable. My son is carried around by his teachers, he sits on their laps, he hugs them. And he's curious. He gets into everything. I can tell you: if you spend a lot of time in physical contact with a small child, that child will investigate your bra, your glasses, your hair, your buttons, the contents of your pockets. The inside of your nose and ears if you have even a moment's distraction. There's no strap or buckle that will keep kids out of anything; you need a lock. With a key in another location. That the kids don't know about. (Yes, of course a four year old can use a lock to open a door and can find a key if he knows where it's kept.) But we just discussed how locks won't work.

So how do we keep these curious, investigating kids away from the guns? Are we back at biometric sensors? Hey, then can we just try the biometric sensors first, see how that works, and then maybe spend a fortune and incur a huge risk to raise our very first teaching army? Seems like the biometric sensors would be easier, cost less, and be faster. Or are you saying that you want the teachers six feet from their students at all times? Because you'll need a fence if you want that. An unclimbable one, let me just mention, as the parent of a climber. (And you'll also need an adult on the other side of the fence, one who isn't armed, because the younger kids don't respond well to teachers under glass. And that adult can't be armed. Wait, we're back to unarmed teachers. WHAT NOW?)

Now let's summarize, proponent of armed teachers. Your vision of our safe, glorious future:
  1. Teachers untrained in teaching.
  2. Who are crack shots with extensive weapons training.
  3. Who are armed.
  4. Who teach from behind Plexiglas walls.
  5. In disintegrating schools (because I can't imagine you're going to approve massive tax increases to pay for all this training and arming of teachers).
  6. With minimal equipment aside from all the guns and ammo (because again).
Holy shit. You've just turned the education system into a giant prison system, incarcerating children as young (in my state) as three. And, let me remind you, unless you think every single teacher, all 7.2 million of them (according to the US Census), is safe and stable and unlikely to snap, you've put the kids at greater risk.

No. No, no, a thousand times no. If this is your plan, if this is the best you can do, then you really, really, REALLY need not to be firing guns, or carrying guns, or in the presence of guns. You are exactly who should not be armed. Because you're fucking dangerous, out of touch with reality, frothing at the mouth rabid.

And I thank you for showing me how to vote. I will absolutely vote to take your guns away.
ilyena_sylph: picture of Labyrinth!faerie with 'careful, i bite' as text (Default)

[personal profile] ilyena_sylph 2012-12-22 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
Could you maybe cut this?

I'd like to be able to scroll back down my Reading List for the next 8 hours or so.
Edited (for reason) 2012-12-22 03:37 (UTC)
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[personal profile] ilyena_sylph 2012-12-22 06:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you very much.
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[personal profile] tei 2012-12-22 03:43 am (UTC)(link)
Wow. Yes. This. Thank you so much for articulating everything that the rest of us mean when we stare dumbly in horror at the people claiming that more guns mean safer schools.
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[personal profile] melannen 2012-12-22 03:53 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, exactly.

And, another note: Have you been in a high school recently? Or even a middle school? Or, heck, even an elementary school, if the system is already in a state of disintegration? There are kids there who are angry, who do not think things through, who have been taught that violence is a solution, who would totally shoot their classmates if they could get a hand on a gun...

...and these same kids are the ones who are most likely to get in physical altercations that require them to be bodily separated. By teachers. Who, in your utopia, are presumably carrying loaded guns. Which could very easily be removed from their holsters by said angry, already-being-violent kids that they are in close contact with. No angry teenager would ever think of shooting up a classroom, huh? ...oh wait.

Yes, prison guards mostly manage to keep their guns away from the prisoners. But then you are back to the schools being a prison system, aren't you. yay.
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[personal profile] ellen_fremedon 2012-12-22 04:26 am (UTC)(link)
And there will be kids who are suicidal. And kids who are bullied and would try anything to make their tormentors back down. And kids who are bullies, and have already escalated their violence or threats of violence as far as they can with their bare hands.
melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2012-12-22 04:39 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I mean, these people seem to have forgotten why we have no-guns-in-schools rules. It isn't to keep outsiders from causing massacres, it's because if there are guns in schools, a student will inevitably use one to shoot people.

Yeah, my uncles used to bring shotguns to school to go hunting afterward, too, but the schools my uncles went to were a completely different set of circumstances (in terms of available adult supervision, and just plain size) than most of the ones I've spent time in, even the ones in their hometown. (Their old high school building now houses one of the town's four elementary schools.) Also, back then, kids sometimes got shot.
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[personal profile] amberfox 2012-12-22 06:05 am (UTC)(link)
My sister was bullied in middle school until she snapped, tackled her tormenter, and beat his head into the tile until two teachers managed to pull her off. She says it's lucky she hit that point at school, since at home she had access to weapons.
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[personal profile] sapote 2012-12-22 12:26 pm (UTC)(link)
I stabbed someone in the hand with a pencil once. I was... seven? Six? It was at the end of a long pattern of physical bullying from his end, but that doesn't make it not stabbing. It's sweet that people think that childhood is a state of angelic innocence, but from what I remember it was a state of extremely poor impulse control and limited problem-solving abilities that prized single-step instant-gratification solutions. This is why we have the whole institution of childhood as a protected state where you don't, for instance, drive or sign legal contracts.
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[personal profile] brownbetty 2012-12-22 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I stabbed my brother in the hand with a pencil. My younger brother. I don't remember why I was angry, and I was horrified right afterward, but jesus.

I mean, even gun defenders will generally argue that guns should be kept away from kids except under supervision, and kids who will be gun adjacent should be trained to respsect guns, but I'm just saying. Childhood is not a time of great decision-making.
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[personal profile] aquila_black 2012-12-22 08:06 am (UTC)(link)
All of which underscores the other prison metaphors, I think. It's not a situation that would be made safer by adding more guns. (At my high school, the on-campus police already carried them, and that was risky enough.)
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[personal profile] bkwyrm 2012-12-22 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
Actually, prison guards don't carry guns. They have mace and billy clubs. They don't carry guns because the chance is too high that a prisoner will get ahold of one. At least, that was the case when I was working in the prison system.
Which should say something about the wisdom of arming teachers, I think.
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[personal profile] melannen 2012-12-22 05:43 am (UTC)(link)
Huh. Clearly I had not done the research there! Yeah, that only makes the case more strongly.

(I would not arm teachers with billy clubs or mace either. Possibly less so, the temptation is greater when it's theoretically nonlethal. And that speaks from the experience of having been one.)

[personal profile] malka 2012-12-22 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
It's not just the angry kids, either. I still remember the time that I kneecapped a friend of mine when I was thirteen or fourteen. It wasn't on purpose -- it was insufficient impulse control plus sports equipment. I was a "good" kid. (She's fine, by the way. It caused her pain but no permanent damage.)

Admittedly, I was on the impulsive end of the spectrum, but I don't think I'd have been safe to handle a gun, no matter how much training I had, until well into my twenties. It certainly would not have been safe to have me as an impulsive, clumsy, curious, and kinesthetically-inclined child around guns all the time.

(Yes, we had kitchen knives and scissors. After an incident when I was a toddler, my parents got very firm on knife safety. Among other things, kitchen knives did not leave the kitchen.)
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[personal profile] melannen 2012-12-22 05:42 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, you'd pretty much have to train all the kids in gun safety, too. From preschool. And it would have to be really damn effective gun education, which I am pretty sure it would not be. Is that really something we need to be spending our limited education time and money on, given priorities?

(Actually our local NRA did once try to get the state legislature to mandate gun instruction in the public schools. It went down in flames, fortunately. Not that I'm opposed on principle, but considering they'd recently stopped offering driver's ed, for funding and liability reasons, and thinking about whether more teenagers are killed by guns or cars...)
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[personal profile] sara 2012-12-22 07:19 am (UTC)(link)
See, I actually do support gun education for children, mostly so they can learn that guns enable you to make big holes in faraway things and it all happens very, very fast -- and unless you're prepared to deal with the consequences of that, you have no business picking up a firearm.

But I have not been able to convince my daughter to learn to shoot because this shit in the news scares her so badly that she doesn't want anything to do with guns. *sigh* So if the NRA's goal is to get more kids to use guns safely, I can say that at least in our household it's not working out that way at ALL.
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[personal profile] cadenzamuse 2012-12-24 03:17 am (UTC)(link)
I also agree with gun education for children, but since we entrust the public school system at teaching teenagers sexual safety and ethics as well as driver's ed, and they generally fail at both, I would never ever trust comprehensive gun safety education for my children to public school.
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[personal profile] sara 2012-12-24 03:31 am (UTC)(link)
*shrug* I got a lot better sex ed at school than I ever did from my parents. Driver's ed was a toss-up, but I was a really uncoordinated kid, that was going to go badly no matter what.

Schools are far from perfect, but most of them are also far from shitty. A lot farther from shitty than they're given credit for.
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[personal profile] derryderrydown 2012-12-22 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I was trained in gun safety from about six, because my dad started keeping his guns at home. (In a locked gun cupboard in a locked wardrobe in my parents' locked bedroom.) Even so, there were times as a teenager, that if I'd had access to guns at school, I sure as FUCK would have used them. Either on the bullies or on myself.

[personal profile] amaliedageek 2012-12-22 04:00 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with you wholeheartedly, and that is as someone who grew up in a very rural part of the US, had a grandfather who was a gunsmith and started learning how to shoot (and to handle guns safely) at the age of 10. I wanted to offer this bit of anecdata:

... some states are so desperate for (cheap) teachers they've cut requirements and allow teachers to get certified for teaching over time as they're teaching.

My brother's doing this right now: our hometown district is so desperate for teachers that he's taken over the automotive repair classes at the county vo/tech school, and will start on his degree next fall. He has 30 years' experience in that field -- and, indeed, brought some of the equipment from the old shop to replace outdated gear in the school's work bays -- but he has no formal education past high school.

On the one hand, he's got full-time work after having to close the shop, and his family has health insurance for the first time ever. I am very happy about both of those things. On the other hand, oh sweet Cthulhu no.

[personal profile] amaliedageek 2012-12-22 06:25 am (UTC)(link)
It's certainly not because we don't know how to handle guns. This same district shuts down for the first two days of deer season: never mind the students, three-quarters of the faculty is out in the field. And most of the jobs available are on farms: livestock gets hurt and raccoons are a primary rabies vector, and waiting on the vet or someone from Fish and Game isn't always an option.

But the mindset required to bag a buck or take out a copperhead is nothing like that needed to secure, load, target and fire a weapon at another person, in a room with 30 frightened people who are not reacting in any sort of predictable way, when the person being shot at is shooting back and may not care if they walk away.

In deprived rural areas, if you aren't academically inclined, no one's hiring on the farms or in the mine, and you don't have an in for any of the handful of other professions, the military is an option that will at least keep you fed. For four generations the only men in my family who didn't join up couldn't pass the physicals; the grandfather who taught me to shoot was an ex-Navy gunnery instructor. And every one of them prayed that none of us would ever have to use a weapon on another human being, because they knew exactly what it did to the people on both sides of the barrel.

[personal profile] amaliedageek 2012-12-22 06:38 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, with the caveat that I'm not going to be available for arguing because of a family illness? I ducked in because I wondered how you and BB and the Earthling were doing, and I'm glad to have contributed something useful, but I can't give responses the attention they would deserve. If you'd rather not given those conditions, I certainly understand.
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[personal profile] vass 2012-12-22 07:40 am (UTC)(link)
*nodnodnod* Quite apart from anything else, the racoons aren't armed.
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[personal profile] sara 2012-12-24 03:32 am (UTC)(link)
Armed raccoons would be some scary mofos. I do not even like to think about that.
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[personal profile] jadelennox 2012-12-22 04:10 am (UTC)(link)
Holy Mother of God, I've been ranting all the rest of this for days since TN proposed the armed teachers bill, but I'd forgotten about teacher nervous breakdowns -- and yes, my fifth grade teacher had one at us, screaming, crying, opening lockers and flinging the contents and students, ripping papers out of notebooks...

yeah. I'd be dead. Christ on a crutch.
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[personal profile] amberfox 2012-12-22 05:51 am (UTC)(link)
My orchestra teacher in high school routinely yelled and threw small objects across the room for about a month before competitions. We always came home with awards, but the stress level was significant.
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[personal profile] vass 2012-12-22 07:44 am (UTC)(link)
My twelfth grade art teacher did all of those things, minus the crying, just for fun. He liked seeing his students scared.

It was the ninth grade music teacher who had the nervous breakdown. Little mousey woman with no classroom discipline, no sense of humour, and a high squeaky voice and a way of talking to fifteen year olds like we were five. I think if she'd been armed she might have actually shot herself in front of a class.
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[personal profile] brownbetty 2012-12-22 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
We gave one of our teachers a nervous breakdown. It was her first year, poor lamb.
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[personal profile] erika 2013-01-10 11:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I had an AP chemistry teacher who was quite clearly free-falling through mood states, or possibly stable but in a mixed episode for an entire school year, starting sometime in late September and continuing, so I'm told (I dropped the class in February), until the end of that school year in May.

She spent most of the class period (the ones where she bothered to show up) talking about how she was learning how to sky dive, or her relationship problems (in love with a married man! in love with a different guy! broken up with tragically! reunited! spending her weekends at their house and not bothering to grade anything!). She often cried.

We were graded on a curve, because the highest scoring person in the class could not get above 50% on her tests due to the fact that they had been written back when she was actually teaching students chemistry, and she just gave them to us on a schedule whether she'd covered any of the material or not. I believe the second trimester I had a 35% in class and that earned me an A-.

Uh. To be fair here, I usually was the one who engaged her and encouraged her in her rambles because otherwise she'd try to teach and that was even more painful and incomprehensible.

I had 3 friends who took the same class with me. Of them, myself and another friend dropped the class, and the other two, who were extremely motivated beyond anyone else I knew in high school, basically taught themselves AP Chemistry from the textbook. The one who loves science and went into it as a career and is now getting her Ph.D. in a chemistry/biology field did manage to take the test at the end of the year to get college credit, the other one wisely decided not to.

I believe my friend who's getting her Ph.D. in the related field may actually be the ONLY STUDENT that year who took the test at the end of the year that the class was actually designed for.

If you want to arm teachers because of people who are 'dangerously out of control with mental illness' (paraphrasing, not a direct quote from anywhere), you have to account for situations where the teachers themselves are the ones who are dangerously out of control and the ADMINISTRATION KNEW AND DID NOTHING ABOUT IT FOR WHATEVER REASON I HAVE NO IDEA.
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[personal profile] killing_rose 2012-12-22 04:11 am (UTC)(link)
While I agree enormously with the sentiment, a point: many (most) rural adults, including teachers, do know how to shoot. In some high schools, for example those in rural Missouri, getting your hunter safety certification is a required part of Shop Class, or was ten years ago.

Part of the disconnect that's occurred is the urban/rural divide in action: Many of those who are coming up with this most probably aren't thinking that we need to teach the teachers. The teachers they know, their children's teachers, they can shoot. They might very well keep guns in their cars. (My teachers did.) It hasn't --and won't-- occur to them that training's needed.

The reverse, of course, is the idea that training would be necessary. Somewhere, my high school biology teacher is looking extremely offended at the idea that he can't hit the broadside of the barn. The moose that my teachers were gifted with more than once, the reindeer that we loved so much, all the things that students and students' parents shared with them (and vice versa)-- they knew we all knew what guns were. I learned gun safety in kindergarten.

People who suggest 'arm the teachers', have, ah, very thoroughly lost their blessed minds, but a not inconsiderable amount of teachers wouldn't need the training, and to say that every teacher would need to be trained is ignoring the lived experience of quite a few people, some of whom are on DW.

If this is your plan, if this is the best you can do, then you really, really, REALLY need not to be firing guns, or carrying guns, or in the presence of guns. You are exactly who should not be armed. Because you're fucking dangerous, out of touch with reality, frothing at the mouth rabid.

I agree with you here. I get that this is a rant of YOU PEOPLE ARE DANGEROUSLY OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY and I agree with you on y'all folks are fucking dangerous and wrong on so many levels that it is terrifying, but a part of your initial premise is wrong. And it's not insignificant.
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[personal profile] scrollgirl 2012-12-22 04:31 am (UTC)(link)
You make a good point that teachers from rural areas may already know how to shoot. And it's not like I know anything about the kind of training people get on handguns, whether it's simply the mechanics of using a handgun or if it's also a kind of self-defence training. Like, I think there's a difference between training someone how to use a gun that will be fired while hunting or at a shooting range or to defend your home, and training someone how to use a gun for the purposes of defending children 9-10 months out of a year from possible armed attackers. I feel like the second scenario requires a whole different kind of mentality that teachers haven't signed up for--it's what cops do, not teachers.
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[personal profile] staranise 2012-12-22 04:40 am (UTC)(link)
The mentality thing is pretty huge. Cops and soldiers have to be taught how to deliberately turn off their empathy and dehumanize the people they kill, or they're traumatized like there's no tomorrow. Teachers have to be taught how to empathize, even when kids are being shits or having tantrums. You can't just switch from Mindset A to Mindset B in the time it would take to respond appropriately to this kind of threat.
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[personal profile] amberfox 2012-12-22 05:54 am (UTC)(link)
And if you can, I'm kind of worried for you. Dissociation is a coping mechanism, but that doesn't mean it's healthy.
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[personal profile] snarp 2012-12-22 11:01 am (UTC)(link)
Yup. I'm a former teacher from rural Appalachia; I do not know how to use a gun, don't want to, and would refuse to do any job that potentially required it of me. The suggestion that it was somehow the teachers at Sandy Hook's responsibility to be armed, and thus that they failed their students by not going in to work everyday prepared to kill one of them, is disgusting.

It doesn't matter whether some teachers know how to use a gun or not - to suggest that it's somehow our responsibility to act as jailers or agents of law enforcement is completely fucking crazy. I was there to teach the kids, not kill them.

Also: I personally would not feel comfortable even having a gun in the same room as a my students. They're kids, their brains are still growing, and they're going to do stupid crap sometimes. That's how they learn. I do not want my personal kids doing their personal stupid crap around items that tend to put an abrupt stop to all learning when you do stupid crap with them. We already get too many of that kind of death around here, just due to parents leaving their guns lying around the house, as people invariably do in an environment in which the presence of guns is ordinary and unquestioned. The number of accidental deaths caused this way in schools would unquestionably be more than the number killed in school shootings, even if this nonsensical plan did prevent any such shootings.
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[personal profile] soc_puppet 2012-12-22 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
Ignorant city-dwelling layperson is curious, if you have the time/inclination to get into it and if it's not too off-topic: Are there any particular restrictions to gun access based on proximity to other people/households? I'm going back and forth on this one mentally and am wondering if there's already anything in place/any general opinions on it.
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[personal profile] elf 2012-12-22 08:49 am (UTC)(link)
City person who spent much of teen years in rural Arkansas here: every family had a rifle; most had more than one.. (I mean, I'm sure that's not literally true. But it was what I expected.)

Most families hunted. Not so much for necessary food, but the local schools scheduled a day or two off at the beginning of turkey season and again for deer season, because failure to do so would result in ridiculous absentee levels during those weeks.

Kids thought of guns as potentially dangerous but very useful tools, like the big kitchen cleaver or an automobile. Were people accidentally killed with them? Sure, and that was a great sadness. Did some people get stupid or vengeful and use them to deliberately kill? Sure, but that's no reason to take them away from everyone else. Did kids misuse them? Sure, sometimes; some kids will misuse anything.

Banning guns is given about as much serious thought as banning cellphone use in the cities because of the accidents caused by txting while driving.

And until the dialogue about guns* acknowledges the drastically different circumstances between rural and urban settings, it's going to continue to go nowhere useful.


---
*And other weapons. Everyone had a pocketknife. I, a geeky, feminine, decidedly non-physically-oriented preteen & teenager, had a small folding pocketknife. An attempt to ban "weapons" at school would be met with about the same reaction as an announcement that the school was going to ban shoelaces.
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[personal profile] ilyena_sylph 2012-12-22 06:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Preach it, hon.

*hugs*
elf: Rainbow sparkly fairy (Default)

[personal profile] elf 2012-12-22 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Moving from middle-class suburbs in CA to rural Arkansas to inner-city CA was fascinating.

I am baffled at how the people I know now react to the existence of guns. I don't shoot; I have fired a gun I think twice in my life (once as a teen; my stepbrother insisted; I fired into the woodpile and my hand hurt for the rest of the day; once as an adult, a black-powder renfaire gun at a training exercise). I have no interest in having or using a gun, nothing but the vaguest ideas of safety or maintenance... but I can't believe people get ALL FREAKED OUT over guns, but not cars.

Cars kill a lot more people in the U.S. than guns. Cars get mishandled a lot more, have more accidents from bad maintenance, are owned and used in violation of the law (my state requires insurance, which a lot of people don't carry), and there's no movement to remove cars or restrict their ownership by psych evaluation, just a constant string of demands to spot the individuals most likely to misuse them, and remove those people's access.

I want guns to be treated the same way: Presume that almost everyone is *likely* capable of using one safely, require some training and licensing to get that permission, and have a long list of acts that can remove that permission, based on statistics about likelihood of danger to others.

And they don't belong in classrooms "in case of shooters" any more than police vans belong on football fields "in case of riots." Being able to construct a situation where that would be the perfect tool does not mean that's a useful allocation of resources, nor that there aren't hundreds of other potential situations where the tool just makes everything worse.
fleurrochard: A black and white picture of a little girl playing air-guitar and singing (Default)

[personal profile] fleurrochard 2012-12-22 07:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not from the US, so I won't get into this discussion any further, but only about this:

but I can't believe people get ALL FREAKED OUT over guns, but not cars.

Cars kill a lot more people in the U.S. than guns.


I'm pretty sure that indeed more people are killed by cars than by guns in the US, but there is, in my opinion, a very important difference: guns are built to harm (whether in defence or in offence), cars are not. Can you harm with them? Of course. But they're not built with the intention to harm.

[personal profile] scissorphishe 2012-12-27 03:09 am (UTC)(link)
I can't believe people get ALL FREAKED OUT over guns, but not cars.

I personally find it baffling how blase people are about cars. (My father once told me, "You know, [scissorphishe], it's really not necessary to hold your breath every time you come to an intersection." BUT INTERSECTIONS ARE FULL OF DANGER. Places with a bunch of moving cars are ALL full of danger!) Guns and cars are both incredibly powerful and incredibly dangerous, and I wish my fellow gun-fearing people would stop treating me like an alien or a sadsack shrinking violet just because cars freak me out.

Here is a difference between cars and guns, though: private citizens have access to weapons designed for the army. Weapons designed to kill human beings. Weapons that are beyond anything you might need for hunting turkeys or deer. When there are people going into schools and mowing down children with armored tanks, then we can talk about how unfair it is that people want to restrict guns but not motor vehicles.
soc_puppet: Words "Baseless Opinion" in orange (Baseless Opinion)

[personal profile] soc_puppet 2012-12-22 06:28 pm (UTC)(link)
My thought process for restricting gun access based on proximity to other humans/households (closer = more restrictions, farther away = fewer restrictions) goes approximately like this:

PROS:

* People living closely packed together will generally be more stressed by one another than people living with greater distances between them

* People living in smaller communities are more likely to think of the people around them as actual people (Dunbar's number/monkeysphere?)

* The farther away you live from other people and the fewer people you see in general, the fewer people there are to shoot

CONS:

* Horrible racist connotations! I don't think that POC are inherently more violent than white folks, but the GOP basically builds its platform on the opposite idea. If the conservadouche collective ever thinks of this, some sort of proximity-based gun restriction stuff could actually get passed, but I have no doubt that they would frame it as "Keep guns out of the hands of those scary urban POC!" More gun control would be nice, but I would feel seriously icky if that's the reason we actually got it. Because ew.


I was at an event once where a Republican state-level congressperson spoke about how one of the (at the time few) things he seriously disagreed with his party on gun control, and he specifically said it was because he lived in a large city. The concept of proximity-based gun control has been kicking around in my head since then, but very rarely at the forefront of my thoughts. I think it could actually work as a viable proposition, but I've been seriously educated on my own white privilege since I first thought of it and the GOP positively reeks of racism.
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[personal profile] elf 2012-12-22 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the term you're looking for is "population density," not "proximity." It's not a matter of how close your neighbor is but how many neighbors live within a mile of you. (My zip code: 13,000 people/sq mile.)

And yeah, there is pretty much no way to discuss that concept without dealing with the fact that people of color historically got shoved into tiny crowded areas of large cities, and since those are the areas with the most crime and violence, a whole lot of racist people think that's a function of race rather than population density and urban cultural stresses.

Potentially: change the dialogue from "population density" to "education." A great deal of the crowded urban areas are low-education... but so are a lot of rural areas. Argue for better training requirements for gun ownership, mandatory safety measures (gun locks etc), a demonstrated ability to describe the care, maintenance and usage features of the gun, a background check free of signs of violence or tendencies to misuse dangerous equipment (throw DUI in there)... the results would still come out "most inner-city residents shouldn't have guns" but they'd also say "a lot of rural people don't seem to be careful enough to be trusted with a gun, either."

I think the discussion could be shifted from demographic politics to personal responsibility by insisting that anyone who can't be bothered to stay sober while operating a two-ton 60MPH pile of metal in public, shouldn't be allowed to handle projectile weapons either.
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[personal profile] ilyena_sylph 2012-12-22 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I. I love your brain.

That is a fantastic idea.
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[personal profile] amberfox 2012-12-22 06:01 am (UTC)(link)
My mother's family is rural. I learned to shoot at 12, my sister at 10. My sister is one of the best shots in the family, and one of my mother's older sisters was very nearly tapped for FBI sniper training. (Apparently she failed the psych test.) We have also come to the conclusion that part of knowing how to use a gun is knowing when not to, so for assorted reasons we don't currently own any. (My son is bipolar, my sister suffers from depression, and my hands shake so badly these days my aim is ruined.)

On the other hand, I don't think my mother has fired a gun in her life. I'm not sure she's ever even picked one up to put it away. So you never know.

(Incidentally, the local procedure for getting rid of ammunition is turning it in to the police. The look on the officer's face when we opened up the file box we'd had to wheel in because it took two people to lift it was adorable. I kind of wish I'd gotten a picture.)
sara: S (Default)

[personal profile] sara 2012-12-22 07:13 am (UTC)(link)
There are real differences between the training necessary to go hunting and the training necessary to carry a gun in a classroom. It would be necessary to train everyone. And that would come at a not-inconsiderable expense to school districts which are already getting it in the teeth from recession-borne budget cuts.

It'd be a lot more reasonable to regulate civilian firearms use, as provided for in the Constitution.
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[personal profile] staranise 2012-12-22 04:17 am (UTC)(link)
Yeees.

This whole thing, I just keep waving my arms inarticulately. Also? Guns may not be the best answer. Shooting people the moment you think they're dangerous? Crap, we have cops doing that now! If a parent comes roaring into a school, angry as hell, and then reaches inside their jacket, I think even a trained police officer would have a dilemma: risk killing an innocent (if testy) unarmed civilian, or risk waiting until they've got their gun out?

Also, know what police know how to do? They know how to negotiate. When you've got your gun trained on someone who's about to make some very bad life decisions, it would be really nice to have more options than just killing them. Because in some situations, no, there really is no option but to shoot somebody--but that's not close to the same thing as "all".

(I guess I should give context of: I worked front desk at a high school for at-risk youth. The kind of people whose parents DID come in drunk or high and looking to hurt them, or whose gang fights spilled over into school. I've had to respond to a lot of "Is this a slapfight, or is she about to pull out a knife?" scenarios.)
Edited 2012-12-22 04:50 (UTC)
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[personal profile] staranise 2012-12-22 06:59 am (UTC)(link)
Also: are we willing to put kindergarten teachers on trial for murder, or do we want to just take their word on it that students' lives were in danger?

(The thing about the scenarios was, a weapon was a litmus test. No weapon = all staff pelt towards the fight and break it up. Weapon = nobody (but police) approach, lockdown. Thankfully I never had to make the call, and only once in the two years I was there did anyone get stabbed.)
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[personal profile] staranise 2012-12-22 07:08 am (UTC)(link)
Well. Only once did someone get stabbed on school property. That's not counting kids who jumped each other after class, though it was fairly rare, since school policy is really clearly, "If you bring gang business here, you ruin this place for EVERYBODY, so don't." During those years, we also had three or four students or recent graduates die in shootings or drug overdoses.

Before I started working there, I was like, "PFFFT, GANGS AND SERIOUS CRIME IN A SMALL CANADIAN CITY. WHAT A RIDICULOUS NOTION."

So now, this assumption that crime and/or violence are like this sudden really clear earthshattering break in an otherwise idyllic school existence has gone out the window for me.
bkwyrm: (Default)

[personal profile] bkwyrm 2012-12-22 04:40 am (UTC)(link)
It is all so fucking scary.
I can shoot. When I got out of high school, I went to work at the Indiana State Prison, as many of us in my small town did. State jobs paid well. I was a visitation clerk for death row - worked outside the wall, did a lot of data verification, worked with a DOS database. All office staff needed to learn how to use guns, for our own protection. In case there was ever an escape. We worked in an office with a gun case on the wall. Just in case.
Anyway, I was 17 when I started there and I learned to shoot with a rifle and a handgun and I can say this: that shit is HARD. It is physically demanding, it requires a great deal of hand-eye coordination and a huge amount of concentration. The secretarial staff was often comforted, after our abysmal scores, by the range master telling us that the prisoners would be so terrified by 30 women with guns that they'd probably run away.

Guns scare the holy living shit out of me. I don't go near them if I can avoid it. I qualified well enough to get out of weekly classes, but just barely. ANd this idea that somehow teachers will be able to do this, that they'll be WILLING to do this, is ludicrous. My local teacher's union has already issued a statement basically saying "Oh hell no." to the NRA, as they should.

As an aside, I've also got little kids, and I live in a city. Our schools are already locked, my kindergartener already attends a school with security guards, and she knows how to do a fire drill, an evacuation drill (in case of a bomb scare), and they practice "intruder alerts" where the teacher turns off the lights and locks the door and they all get under the tables and practice being quiet. My KINDERGARTENER. Who is FIVE. Is already trained in how to behave in case someone comes into her school with a gun.

Sometimes I just want to go hide under something heavy until the world make sense again, but I suspect I might be there forever.
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[personal profile] vass 2012-12-22 05:00 am (UTC)(link)
When my father was about that age, the drills were to climb under the desk in case of bombing, and they put erasers in their mouths to bite down on. But that was a world war.
klia: (!)

[personal profile] klia 2012-12-22 04:55 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry, only a sociopathic gun zealot could believe that getting more guns into more hands is the solution. And Wayne LaPierre is just plain cuckoo bananas.
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[personal profile] vass 2012-12-22 04:57 am (UTC)(link)
As if US schools weren't steadily becoming more and more like prisons already.

Two news items I keep hearing over and over:

1. Teacher calls the cops to come deal with a disobedient (but neither armed nor dangerous) child. Police come and put child in lockup until the parents can come collect her.

2. Parents call police on their mentally ill teenager who is threatening to commit suicide but is not endangering anyone else; police come and shoot the suicidal teenager dead.

And hell yeah to your point about teachers having nervous breakdowns. Also teachers with poor judgement, teachers who are lax about safety and maintenance, teachers who want to show kids how cool they are by doing dangerous and stupid stunts...
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[personal profile] starwatcher 2012-12-22 05:11 am (UTC)(link)
.
Yes, exactly. Those who think arming teachers is a valid solution have left logic and common sense far behind, and are living in a Rambo fantasy-world.

A similar rant, from the teacher's POV: I'm a Professor, Not a SWAT Team Member at Shakesville.
.
missmollyetc: by trascendenza (Default)

[personal profile] missmollyetc 2012-12-22 06:10 am (UTC)(link)
The mental contortions required to make the sort of statements the NRA is known for has left me in panicked awe for years, not merely that they can promote those ideas, but that they actually seem to view them as solutions and obvious facts.
jadelennox: Peace: Shalom / Salaam (politics: peace)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2012-12-22 07:25 am (UTC)(link)
I followed that link. Goodness knows why.

*breathes*

Here's the thing that kills me. It's not good enough for the NRA that *they* are armed; they want *me* to be armed. They want to tell me that if I or my students get shot because I don't know how to shoot or own a weapon, it's my fault.

I can't even. TFV, I just CAN'T.
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[personal profile] missmollyetc 2012-12-22 09:50 am (UTC)(link)
I seriously don't even know. I'm from a teaching family with a strong military and religious service background (oddly, not as far apart from each other as you might think!). Not only are 'more guns' not the answer, but the sort of training you'd need to even BEGIN such a program--not just physically, but mentally preparing students and staff to maintain a high alert in the event of an armed response... That is not a road you want to go down, not at all.

It's not even an issue of 'can they use them,' any idiot can pull a trigger, it's 'can they use them well' and the answer to that question is no. Military and police are specifically trained to operate in combat situations and they still cannot say that every single one of their trainees are going to react with appropriate force in combat. The point of their intense training is to give them an edge up on Fight/Flight; it doesn't erase the urge.
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[personal profile] bzero 2012-12-23 08:54 am (UTC)(link)
And not only that, but that THEY are the ones with the political clout in this country, and anyone who opposes them will likely lose reelection. :(
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[personal profile] andraste 2012-12-22 06:29 am (UTC)(link)
My dad is a retired teacher - a retired school principal, in fact. He grew up with guns and went hunting with my grandfather many times. And yet, I keeping trying to imagine him using a gun on something other than a rabbit or a fox and failing. He didn't even like shooting ducks! He releases spiders into the wild instead of killing them, for heaven's sake! (We're Australian, so killing rabbits and foxes is a valuable public service.)

He was a great teacher, just the kind of person people wanted teaching their kids. Unless they were expecting him to shoot someone.
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[personal profile] andraste 2012-12-22 01:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I bet he was a great teacher.

Even kids who hated every other teacher - and me! - used to tell me how amazing he was.

And I'm not surprised he would have made a lousy sniper. They're just not the same skill sets. It's ridiculous.

It makes about as much sense as expecting all the cops to become first-class ballet dancers. Sure, some people might have both sets of skills, but it wouldn't be a very realistic hiring criteria for the police force.
sara: S (Default)

[personal profile] sara 2012-12-22 07:05 am (UTC)(link)
Amen.

I just pulled my kid out of a kindergarten room where I thought his teacher was simply not able to cope with the pressures of having responsibility for that many five and six year old kids. Talk about people I do NOT want carrying guns to work every day.

And the idea that the great teachers my kids have had should be required to carry guns, or to work in an environment with armed people? It's ridiculous.
sara: S (Default)

[personal profile] sara 2012-12-22 07:24 am (UTC)(link)
We've certainly had teachers who, were firearms safety part of the curriculum, I think they'd do a fine job teaching it. But most of the people who go into teaching little bitty kids? No.

As I've said elsewhere today: I really appreciated it that our local PD made a point of being out and about around our schools today, given the variety of rumors that have been making the rounds. But the way they did it was to have uniformed officers who are parents walk their kids into school -- which I think sends much more a message of we are all in this together than your kids are under armed guard, and that's a message I am a lot more comfortable with. I have been thinking of dropping the chief a note and telling him how smart I think that was, actually.
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[personal profile] chalcopyrite 2012-12-22 09:00 am (UTC)(link)
I never had a teacher have a nervous breakdown, but I was terrified of my third and fourth class teacher. She didn't like teaching, or maybe she just didn't like me, blew hot and cold depending on unknown circumstances, seemed to enjoy reducing me to tears, and just -- I was terrified of her. And I knew stone-cold she wasn't allowed to physically hurt me. If I'd known she had a gun, I don't think I would have been able to make myself go to school.

The other massive, massive assumption the NRA is making, on top of the idea that all teachers are mentally stable and "safe" to be armed around children ffs, is that all of them are physically able. My mother's been a teacher for years. She's a good teacher. She also has extremely poor vision, and since she had cataract surgery, double vision. All questions of willingness and training aside, there is no way she could be a good shot.

(She's also worked with just the kind of privileged, insulated, stupid teenagers who'd think it was funny to try and get hold of a teacher's gun, but that's another rant.)
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[personal profile] bluflamingo 2012-12-22 10:30 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, to the physically able part (I mean, also the other parts, obviously as well). I'm in the UK, where we don't do guns, really, but when I think of most of my teachers... I can't imagine a lot of them being physically able to pass any kind of firearms certification, even assuming they'd want to carry them, which they probably wouldn't. Which, way to discriminate against anyone with any kind of disability or issue that prevented firing a gun. And presumably anyone with the kind of mental health problem that would have people screaming in horror at the idea of that person being armed around kids - especially since everyone's favourite reaction to mass shootings is 'oh, he must be mentally ill.'
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[personal profile] out_there 2012-12-22 09:55 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, I really hope no teacher ever loses it.

Yeah, that was my immediate thought here. I remember moving out of a school and hearing about two weeks later how one of the teachers went in and picked a knife fight with one of the *other teachers*. Teachers are people -- who frankly do a job I'd hate to do -- and sometimes they snap. Arming them doesn't make the situation better, but it does add a whole new level of stress and life-or-death responsibility on to a job that's already difficult.
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[personal profile] laurajv 2012-12-22 04:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I keep thinking of the teacher who hurled desks across the room in rage -- my husband's 4th grade teacher. If that woman had had a gun on her, I am pretty sure I never would have met my husband at all.
icarus: Snape by mysterious artist (Default)

[personal profile] icarus 2012-12-22 10:33 am (UTC)(link)
I hope I don't get shouted down again. I keep trying, keep telling people what will work, as someone who knows "gun" people. (The NRA of course is funded by gun manufacturers so they're not really gun "people," no more than any corporation can really be a "person." And, yes, I do realize that many "gun people" pick up their rhetoric from the NRA.)

Every time we put strong gun laws in place, the gun owners whinge and complain. They chip and chip and chip away at those laws.

We had the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban. Then Bush let it expire and Obama didn't renew it. At the state level, I'm told every session about gun laws is packed, and not with gun control people.

What's driving this?

Yeah, yeah, there's the complaint that goes out to the public: "You're violating our 2nd amendment rights! Blah-blah-blah! UnAmerican, outrage, outrage." But that argument never makes sense to me. It's too abstract. And silly. What, we're going to kick down doors and hunt for guns just because we said that, no, you can't have an ICBM in your backyard? It sounds like spin.

What I've noticed is that to each other they make the real complaint:

"Heyyy... no fair! I had to have an anal probe to buy my gun, yet my best friend in (name some weak-gun-law state) bought his (or hers) at the Guns N' Ammo drive-thru."

Since gun law is made at the state level, every state is different. The inequality irritates the gun owners. Then they pack public hearings, find ways around it, support the NRA's fight against minimal laws that, when asked, 74% of them will say are perfectly reasonable. There's a drive to the bottom.

Why? It's this principle at work:

Capuchin Monkeys Reject Inequal Pay

We have to get rid of the inequality between state gun laws. Which probably means a federal law. If we don't, then the chip-chip-chip-chipping will continue.
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[personal profile] lederhosen 2012-12-22 11:23 pm (UTC)(link)
That was one of the big things that happened in Australia in 1996: making gun laws consistent across states.

OTOH, "states' rights" seems to be a much more influential dogma in the USA than it does here.
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[personal profile] kathmandu 2012-12-23 12:54 am (UTC)(link)
That's because, in the USA, "states' rights" is code for "we wanna be kings of our own little mountains so we can practice our bigotry without restraint by any law". Been that way since before the US civil war.
icarus: Snape by mysterious artist (Default)

[personal profile] icarus 2012-12-24 01:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, states' rights is a much bigger issue in the US.

I've talked to my serious gun rights people, and they're not joining the current debate (nor voicing the "arm teachers" argument, which I think we can all agree is stupid). They're just waiting to see what kind of legislation actually turns up.

Then they'll show up at the hearings on that legislation.

I ran my idea of uniform gun laws past one friend and he pointed out that most states in the US have weak gun laws. So for most gun owners a uniform federal law would mean an increase in gun control, and they'll oppose it.

My suggestion of uniform laws won't help in the immediate future. It'll just help for the long term, eroding the support for the NRA that's caused by the constant irritation of unequal laws.

Interestingly, they're all jumping on board the "let's increase access to mental health care" bandwagon, even the ones who oppose Obamacare.
lederhosen: (Default)

[personal profile] lederhosen 2012-12-24 02:03 pm (UTC)(link)
The "increase access to mental health care" strikes me as a somewhat more palatable version of the same process that gives us the "arm teachers" response. People have been forced to acknowledge that SOMETHING needs to be done, but they don't want that something to be "restrict access to guns", so they're trying to come up with alternatives.

(Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of improved mental health care, but doing it as a response to Newtown is more likely to stigmatise mentally-ill people than benefit them, and it's not guaranteed to fix the problem. AFAICT we still don't have any confirmation that the shooter was diagnosably mentally ill.)
icarus: Snape by mysterious artist (Default)

[personal profile] icarus 2012-12-24 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, absolutely, you betcha it's an avoidance of gun control. Usually the "avoidance of gun control" messages are absurd and useless, like, "let's reduce video game violence." Increasing access to mental health care would actually do a lot of good.

I don't support any lowering of HIPAA standards, but if we can -- regardless of their motives -- get the gun control people to support the mental health aspects of Obamacare? Oh heck yeah, let's do it.
icarus: Snape by mysterious artist (Default)

[personal profile] icarus 2012-12-23 03:45 am (UTC)(link)
The ban on assault weapons happened because people started *talking* about it. That's my first practical suggestion.

Now there's political will and opportunity, though it would be hard to beat down the state's rights issues (plus the problems of having to negotiate gun laws between the areas like Chicago that have super-tough gun laws and places like, oh, Fairbanks, Alaska, where guns are given out in Cracker Jacks boxes).

But to begin suggesting it, talking about it, would be the first step. The gun rights people would agree that the inconsistencies are very, very annoying (especially those in states like Maryland where guns are more tightly controlled, who hate the "nyah-nyah, hahahah, we don't have to get an anal probe" attitude from their friends in Virginia).

We also need to start showing up to legislative sessions where hearings are held on gun control. Right now, only the gun rights people attend those. So that's my second practical suggestion.

And right now my gun rights friends are totally on board with widening access to mental health care. So there's my third practical suggestion.

[personal profile] scissorphishe 2012-12-27 04:21 am (UTC)(link)
I personally have never heard of a gun control advocate who thought that federal laws aren't important. I think the problem is that gun control advocates would dearly love to pass a federal gun control law, but there is no bloody way to get it through Congress. (And if you did somehow miraculously pass the bill, and if the president signed it into law, the NRA would get it delayed in court for as long as they possibly could, and god knows what the courts would do with it. But mostly the problem is passing the damn bill.)
icarus: Snape by mysterious artist (Default)

[personal profile] icarus 2012-12-27 04:34 am (UTC)(link)
The current Republican House would never let it through, it's true.

The gun rights people plan to lie in wait until actually legislation (state or federal) is attempted. Then they'll show up to fight.

kass: Siberian cat on a cat tree with one paw dangling (Default)

[personal profile] kass 2012-12-22 12:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you so much for this post. For saying everything I've been wanting to say, but haven't managed to say. And for doing it with your usual panache, which has provided a much-needed moment of laughter today.
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[personal profile] naraht 2012-12-22 01:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Holy shit. You've just turned the education system into a giant prison system, incarcerating children as young (in my state) as three.

The scary thing is that, given the way that many schools are run, administered and conceptualized already, this sounds less and less like a shocking development and more like the way that things are going anyway. A slide down the slippery slope towards Foucault's Panopticon: "Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, all of which resemble prisons?''

(Perhaps there are limits. But considering that some schools have started requiring students to wear tracking badges like paroled convicts, who knows.)
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[personal profile] norah 2012-12-22 05:15 pm (UTC)(link)
There is actually, in justice and ed policy work, a phrase for something similar to this - "the school-to-prison pipeline" - for how we are preparing a large part of our population not for college and careers, but for a life of incarceration.
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[personal profile] kouredios 2012-12-22 02:35 pm (UTC)(link)
You're right. You're absolutely right, of course. I just have no patience with any of the arguments that accept as a premise that we can't do anything about the number of guns that are already out there. The "arm the teachers" argument, or the "more armed guards" argument. I don't want to live in a police state, thankyouverymuch. How about we argue first about how if there were fewer guns, and they were better regulated, we wouldn't even need to be talking about more guns in schools?

I've seen so many people argue that those of us trying to see fewer guns in the U.S. and banned assault weapons are living in a fantasy land. How is imagining teachers shooting bad guys Wild-West style not a fantasy?
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[personal profile] pocketmouse 2012-12-22 02:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Catholic schools with nuns as teachers.
laurajv: Holmes & Watson's car is as cool as Batman's (Default)

[personal profile] laurajv 2012-12-22 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
FOR REAL ZOMG.

We've talked before about situations where I am dubious that gun control helps (DV, street crime), but mass shooters -- who tend to use legally acquired weapons for which there's not really a good use EXCEPT mass shootings -- how many people have to die, OK?

I don't want anyone taking away my father-in-law's guns that he uses to shoot skeet, or his hunting rifle -- but then, almost no one in favor of gun control measures is suggesting that. Shoot skeet, no one cares. Hunt deer; deer are tasty tasty vermin.

Semi-automatic rifles with giant-ass clips? What the hell are those good for except shooting into groups of people? Nothing that I know of. Fuck those guns.
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[personal profile] lorax 2012-12-22 05:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for this.
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[personal profile] alexseanchai 2012-12-22 06:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Cosigned. I'm also laughing about (because the other option is crying about) how the people who insist teachers must carry guns, which implies that teachers are trustworthy enough to carry guns, are dead certain that teachers are not trustworthy enough for collective bargaining.
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[personal profile] marina 2012-12-22 07:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm from a country with a mandatory military draft. A draft that requires anyone drafted to go through firearms training and many to carry and care for firearms for the duration of their service (2-3 years). Most of the people I know (myself included) have fired an M16 and would have no problem being saddled with a gun again if the need ever arose.

The thought of teachers - or any professionals really who were not cops or soldiers - carrying guns routinely, TERRIFIES ME. The gun laws in my country prevent anyone who isn't in the security business to carry one (and there are still harsh restrictions on that!) and that shit has NEVER BEEN CONTESTED IN PUBLIC DISCOURSE. NO ONE has ever brought up that we should arm [people who work where violent crime happened] as a way to prevent violent crime and MOST PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE CERTIFIED TO USE A GUN.

Basically, as someone who has gun training, as someone who is comfortable around guns, the NRA terrifies me.
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[personal profile] marina 2013-01-13 10:59 am (UTC)(link)
I don't remember having a conversation about that online - mostly because I only discovered the reason for the ban on soldiers taking their weapons home very recently.

It happened in the middle of my service, where suddenly everyone who carried a gun routinely was instructed to leave their gun at the base instead of taking it home with them. Which everyone thought was very reasonable (and certainly made everyone's life a lot easier in terms of lugging the things around!)

I thought the ban was instituted to prevent civilians from using soldiers' weapons against other civilians. When I was 17 I visited a friend in a different city, we hung out at a park until late, someone from the nearby building minded the noise and then eventually came out with an M16 and started shooting at us from above. This was a person whose son was a soldier who'd brought his gun home for the weekend. It was on the news, it was a huge deal even though no one got hurt, and even though the IDF has always had very strict rules and drilled soldiers to prevent anyone from using their guns (my mom thought it was weird and hilarious when I wouldn't let her TOUCH my M16 just to put it in the car when she picked me up from bootcamp, but we were drilled like fuck and NO ONE TOUCHES YOUR GUN BUT YOU, EVER EVER EVER, under penalty of prison, etc) it is still mindblowing to me that we've had as few incidents as we have with relatives using their kids' guns on the weekend considering we used to arm 60% of our 18 year olds at any given time.

But anyway, I only recently found out the ban was actually to prevent soldiers from taking their own lives when they were away from the base (with the theory being that at the base there are support systems and help available which there might not be at home). And yes, it did work, and the amount of suicides decreased dramatically.

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