thefourthvine | Poll: Vid Permissions

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Poll: Vid Permissions

Recently, I have been doing some codeine-enhanced pondering of vids - specifically, linking to them or recommending them, and how we do that, and how we get permission to do that. (This was inspired by a discussion with someone, but I won't be mentioning her name unless she indicates that she wants me to.) Because in media fandom, my understanding is that fannish etiquette requires you to ask permission before you link to or recommend a vid. But I could be wrong. I have yet to get my hands on

miss_manners161's Guide to Fannish Etiquette. That thing is so damned hard to find.

So, in the absence of a definitive ruling, I thought I'd ask vidders.

There aren't, however, a lot of vidders reading this LJ, I don't think. And I'd like to get responses from as wide a cross-section of the vid-making community as possible. So, if you are a vidder (or, as AMV people put it, editor) - or if you aren't, but a lot of vidders read your LJ, or if you have the password to the Secret Clubhouse where all the cool vidkids hang out - could you please link to or pimp this? Great would be my joy and appreciation.

Obviously, only those with LJ accounts can take this poll, but anyone can comment anonymously. (Or, heck, email me if you like - thefourthvine at livejournal dot com will find me.)

And, just to repeat: this poll is for those who have vidded only. There will be a poll for non-vidders, though, coming soon.

[Poll #796561]

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I have my vid site password protected. It's also got a no robots file attached to it (yet somehow it still surfaces on Google, sigh). I try to keep links to it down to a minimum. I require viewers to send me a permission statement saying they won't link to, archive, or distribute my vids without permission. The reasons for this are:

1) to protect me from TPTB, especially the RIAA, whom I fear
2) to protect me from excessive bandwidth drains which can become expensive
3) to protect me from plagiarism and/or other people trying to take credit for my work

I used to have my vids up without a password, and then some ass burned my Firefly vid and a bunch of other people's Firefly vids to a CD and handed it to Nathan Fillion at some kind of fan lunch.

Many people don't get why this is a bad idea, to which I can only reply: I am breaking the law. Please don't get my ass sued.

Anyway, I find it totally acceptable for people to link to my LJ announcement or to my LJ vids tag page. I prefer that people don't link to my vid site itself. I state this preference in every vid announcement.

When linking to other vidders' sites, I assume that a) if they have not said otherwise, and b) I have seen them freely publishing links to their vid site in various communities, they have no problem with me linking to their vid site. I'm willing to be wrong about that, though.

I really don't think what we're doing is breaking the law. It's not like we're putting these videos on DVD and trying to sell them for a profit...at least I hope some people aren't lol. I figure as long as we're not profiting from this hobby or putting that fandom in a bad light then it's far fetched to consider it an illegal practice. I've had my site up forever with various fandoms and I've received nothing but praise from it (even from celebrities).

Unfortunately, your interpretation of copyright law does not coincide with any established legal precedent. It is pretty definitely the case that any copyright owner could sue the living hell out of a vidder if they wanted, and win.

That they have not should be taken as little more than luck.

I don't think luck has anything to do with it. I know for sure that movie/television/music studios are well aware of what we're doing. Vidders aren't hard to find...we're 2 clicks away. I'm pretty sure they find it a waste of time to even pursue legal matters on this kind of thing. The copyright law may exist but I doubt they're going to enforce it anytime soon. They have bigger things to worry about with sites like Youtube out there lol.

All the same, it only would take one pissed off and crazy creator or executive to sink us.

And one need only tune into Fox's summer programming to know that such folk are in no short supply.

LOL...very true. The day I see the studios really crack the whip on some of these huge media sites is the day I will become a bit more weary. As of now I'm just going to enjoy my hobby with no reservations.

(Reply to this)

It doesn't really matter what you *think*, though. We *are* breaking the law. There is info about this all over the Intarwebs, especially on fan vid related sites. It's not a question of how we feel about it. It's a fact -- we are violating copyright laws as they currently stand. Profit has absolutely nothing to do with it. Praise has nothing to do with it. Look it up.

Good lord lol. Just about every personal site on the net is breaking the law somehow. Do you see anyone doing anything about it? Youtube is one of the most popular sites on the net...they're even on the freakin news (MSNBC) for heaven's sake. That site has illegal material all over it but they're still up and running. Doesn't say much for the dreaded copyright law.

You know, this is so moronic that it probably isn't even worth trying to explain it to you. I'm just too gobsmacked that anyone could be this willfully stupid about the background and history of their hobby. I will have to leave it to people with more patience to try to explain this.

I don't need the law explained to me. You're getting all pissy for nothing. I'm simply saying if studios were ever going to TRULY crack down on this kind of thing (which I doubt) there are much bigger fish to fry than us.

There have been a handful of C&D letters targeted at vidders (and this means that a lot of lawyers make a lot of money disagreeing with our interpetatation that vidding/fan fiction = fairuse) - I'd guess I see around one a month in my online travels. In the great sea of Internet, this is probably not 'a lot', but it does feel like we're mosquitoes being picked off randomly.

That being said: I'd always caution any vidder in approaching any music artist, show creator, studio executive or showbiz person directly. The more visible you are (Youtube or Boing Boing) the greater you'll stand out among the herd...of mosquitoes (okay my analogies are failing here).

That's unfortunate. I know some HUGE (and popular) vid sites that have been out there for years now that haven't heard a peep from anyone. I guess they're just lucky.

Tell that to the folks who've gotten C&D letters.

It won't be the studios necessarily. It is far more likely to be the RIAA going after the distribution of the music. Currently they seem to be concentrating on P2P and places like YouTube. A little caution on distributing vids would make it even less likely for vidders to be the latest targe of the music industry.

Historically, yes, the studios have turned a blind eye, but they are less likely to do so if fans are constantly in their face about it, and redistributing even vid clips as well as music is illegal -- it says so right at the beginning of most DVD sets "distributing...even for non-commercial purposes..."

I think the only thing required here is a little discretion. I sincerely enjoy vids, I'm willing to jump through a few hoops to continue to enjoy them. I'd rather you guys keep doing what your doing, and if that means locking down sites or being cautious about where and how we link, it all works for me.

And napster was one of the most popular sharing programs, and many articles were written about the related phenomena, but eventually there were lawsuits. And not just against the creator of the sharing method, or people who made a profit, or even only against people who could afford large payouts, but also against average people who were caught downloading and/or distributing.

It *is* illegal. (Despite your initial comment that you "really don't think what we're doing is breaking the law.") An argument can be made as to whether or not certain practises should be legal, but that doesn't change the law. Most of us, or at least most of my acquaintances, each make our own personal decision about how we're comfortable distributing or acquiring media, and it's disheartening and rude (although not illegal) when someone else chooses to ignore own choices and publicize things we've asked to keep private. Which is what I think is sort of what this poll is trying to clarify.

to protect me from TPTB, especially the RIAA, whom I fear

Given the RIAA's recent behavior, I am not surprised. They're more like the Dark Lord Sauron than anything else.

I used to have my vids up without a password, and then some ass burned my Firefly vid and a bunch of other people's Firefly vids to a CD and handed it to Nathan Fillion at some kind of fan lunch.

Yeah. I heard about that, and I will never understand the urge to hand any kind of fannish product to actors/writers/copyright owners/whoever. We're over here! They're over there! It's better that way!

When linking to other vidders' sites, I assume that a) if they have not said otherwise, and b) I have seen them freely publishing links to their vid site in various communities, they have no problem with me linking to their vid site. I'm willing to be wrong about that, though.

You would, in fact, appear to be right about that, just based on the poll. I mean, half the vidders who responded had never heard of this weird permission-asking custom. My conclusions thus far:

a) Most vidders would rather be linked or rec'd than not, as long as people do it sensibly and reasonably. (No hotlinking, no linking outside the fannish world, no clip theft, no claiming someone else's work as your own, etc.)

b) The ones that have specific preferences (link only to the LJ post, link only to the entry page) or prefer not to be linked say so, typically right alongside their vid announcements or on their websites.

I've been assuming - because it's what I was taught, back when I started thinking of recommending vids - that you can't link or rec unless specifically stated otherwise. Actually, it sounds more like you can link or rec unless the vidder specifies otherwise. This is a great surprise to me.

But since it makes it about 3,000 times easier to rec live-action vids, I am quite happy to be surprised.

I've been assuming - because it's what I was taught, back when I started thinking of recommending vids - that you can't link or rec unless specifically stated otherwise. Actually, it sounds more like you can link or rec unless the vidder specifies otherwise. This is a great surprise to me.

It is a surprise to me too! One less barrier to vid recs for me. (The others being a severe lack of vid vocabulary, and a tendency to be distracted by the music and forget to watch the pictures.)

My advice on the vocabulary thing: don't worry about it. No one who is reading will have the vocabulary, either, except the vidders, who will know what you mean no matter what you say. So say, "Oooo, shiny," or, "Sparkly like a Barbie-themed birthday party!" or, "It goes whoosh, and then everything blows up." Just pretty much find somewords, and they'll do. And try to focus on why you like it - how it makes you feel, for example, or what it makes you think about. Everyone can relate to these things.

And as for the second - watch the vid three times, and think like a recommender the second and third times. ("What will I write about this?") That will help a lot with the tendency to de-focus. Or, it helps me, anyway.

More people used to want to fly under the radar than do now, so you mostly have us old school holdouts with our paranoia and our passwords. (: I believe that the YouTubeification of the world is going to break down a lot of these barriers, for good or ill, and that the RIAA and MPAA will be fighting bloody battles for a long time, but will lose.

This sounds very right to me, based on the results of the poll. Not so much the paranoia part of it - the thing is, most people with passwords either locked up after an Incident or do it to prevent an Incident (like, god forbid, a close encounter of the RIAA kind), so it isn't paranoia - but the differing mindsets based on when people got into vidding.

The pioneers got used to being on the fringes, to keeping quiet, to lying low. The newcomers are used to being amongst multitudes; they worry more about how to get the word out than how to keep it all on the down-low.

Um. Can you tell I'm rehearsing the meta post? But, yes, I think you've put your finger on it. The poll results totally bear you out on this; everyone who has said no on the permission question, for example, is someone who has been around a while, and a lot of them have been burned in one way or another.

the RIAA and MPAA will be fighting bloody battles for a long time, but will lose

From your lips to god's ears.

I shall look forward to it.

I had a conversation with someone this weekend at VVC (and dammit, I forget who), and she said that the RIAA in particular would be in retreat for years, but that a lot of people would be hurt as they fought viciously until the end. I think it's important to remember that while many of us assume they can't win in the end, that doesn't mean they can't still do a lot of damage.

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Poll: Vid Permissions

Thanks so much for this poll.

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I think it has changed a lot recently.

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Yay, a meta post!